sorry, Ivy
-
GravityCakes — 11 years ago(November 20, 2014 06:12 PM)
Exactly. That is my feeling as well. They are not hurting anyone else, they are adults, there are no children in the future, and they actually love and support each other, which is nice to see these days. A lot of my peers have gone through or are going through divorces (I am in my forties), so the fact that they are a happy couple is what is most significant to me. At this point I don't have any interest in being "disgusted" or "morally outraged" by a loving couple. As you say Sook-Yongsheng, save the disapproval for people who are actually hurting animals and/or other human beings.
"Hearts and kidneys are tinker toys! I am talking about the central nervous system!" -
TracesOfLove — 11 years ago(June 02, 2014 10:06 AM)
"Okay, let me try this again
You meet Charles and Ivy at a cocktail party in New York. They are super sweet and are obviously happy together and in love. You even keep in contact with them for whatever reason.
A few months later, you find out the truth. Somehow, some way, the truth is out. You have not witnessed the horrible antics of this family, only that Ivy has mentioned that her family is "nuts" and she doesn't really talk to them.
Yet you find out this detail. HOW would you react? Your gut reaction.
And please, PLEASE be honest."
I would at first laugh and be like "Oh man that's crazy!". I would think it was gross but I wouldn't care since it doesn't affect me in anyway except the bizarre experience of meeting such a couple. I would find it very interesting. Like a real life Flowers in the Attic, and wonder how crazy her family must be and the stories she could tell. In the movie I thought it was gross when they were merely first cousins so the brother and sister thing didn't really make me that much more grossed out than I already was. I like interesting people and as long as they aren't hurting anyone it's cool with me. I'm so conditioned to think incest is gross, I can't even think otherwise. But then you see royals marrying cousins, as well as people throughout history(I've heard of Orthodox Jewish people marrying cousins), not to mention the Bible! So maybe I abhor it because I was programmed to. Maybe it is programmed in us so we don't create strong powerful families. Because high society seemed to encourage it quite a lot. The only other people you hear about committing incest are the proletarians who tend to be uneducated which means they probably skipped the programming to think it's wrong. So maybe it's not as weird and unnatural as we'd like to think. -
butaneggbert — 11 years ago(October 26, 2014 12:12 PM)
What's interesting about the scenario you set up is that it divorces their situation from everything we know about them. In other words, "Let's say you didn't have the facts, and met them in the most superficial way, and learned the most hot-button, least-explicated fact of their lives. What would you think?"
Now why would you posit that as the most authentic reaction to their situation? I think it's just the opposite: I think it explores the most knee-jerk, least-informed reaction any of us could produce.
Their relationship is "incestuous" only in the most technical sense. They weren't raised as brother and sister. Their affection for each other grew as it would have between any two people with a more socially acceptable distance.
And you have to examine what "incest" is, in Western culture. It has two primary facets: a romantic association between siblings, and the sexual involvement between them that could produce a genetically flawed offspring.
The first has an "ick" factor that's as much an emotional reaction as a logical, legal one.
The second is a genuine societal concern. As a culture, we're invested in having the strongest, most capable citizens possible.
When you react to Ivy and Charles, you can't consider that more reasonable, logical element, because they're not going to have children.
You can barely consider the brother/sister element, because that's not the structure they were raised with.
So discarding the validity of their relationship with "Ick, incest!" doesn't stand up to scrutiny. -
sabar-1 — 11 years ago(November 09, 2014 08:01 AM)
Interesting comments but I do think most people have some sort of built in factor - maybe evolutionary in some way. For instance, my husband had a son with a girlfriend before our marriage. This son is a half brother to a younger daughter. They grew up in different states and rarely saw each other. However, they love each other as brother and sister - I don't think a thought of them as some sort of romantic couple has ever entered their minds. I think this is the case for most people.
(This excludes sexual desire in teens - I personally know more than one woman whose full brother raped them as teens growing up in the same house. That is a completely different discussion.)
Rachel -
GravityCakes — 11 years ago(November 20, 2014 05:28 PM)
Oh please. I think i have heard many much more "shocking" revelations over the years than this one. It has been common historically for related persons, especially cousins, including first cousins, to marry especially among members of the aristocracy. Mary and Matthew on Downton Abbey were cousins (and Mary's first fiance was a cousin as well). Sure, it is unusual in 2014 American culture for incestuous hookups (at least publicly admitted), but I honestly would give a rat's behind the same way that I wouldn't care if they mentioned that they were into bdsm. They are a loving couple, and at this point in my life, I would be happy for them, as I have seen many marriages and relationships fall apart at this point in my life. I have seen friends "come out" in their fifties who were from what the rest of us knew happily married with kids, etc. But I am a married man in my forties so I have seen and heard quite a bit over the years. They are not having children, so that issue is off the table.
Interestingly this is a theme in the film Lone Star (another Chris Cooper film). I won't spoil it but the response is quite amusing.
"Hearts and kidneys are tinker toys! I am talking about the central nervous system!" -
TrevorReznick — 11 years ago(January 14, 2015 02:53 PM)
Interestingly this is a the
me in the film Lone Star (another Chris Cooper film).
Yes, someone mentioned that on another thread:
http://www.imdb.com/board/11322269/board/thread/225174186?p=2&d=2 25231941
Ironic about Chris Cooper's character in Lone Star being in the same boat as Little Charles in A:OC. And Cooper's character in A:OC happens to be the
uncle
(loving and supportive, naturally) of the nephew character in the same situation.
Cooper rocks, he is such a wonderful actor!
Hard to believe that country used to rule anything -
-
img54-1 — 11 years ago(December 13, 2014 05:38 PM)
Why on earth would anyone they casually meet find out they are sister and brother? First cousins yes, and that's actually quite legal in most places in the USA (I think.) They wouldn't ever need to tell anyone that they're really half siblings.
-
neonberry — 11 years ago(May 08, 2014 07:56 AM)
Apparently everyone else in the thread thinks incest is normal.. you absolute weirdos.. I agree the original poster - its gross!
And YES its normal to think it is gross. Did you not see how Ivy reacted when she found out? She was horrified, disgusted and upset. -
joeykeo — 11 years ago(May 10, 2014 10:46 AM)
They didn't know they were brother and sister until just then.
So their relationship was formed as cousins. We have no idea if Ivy ever told Little Charles they were siblings but here is the thing. On paper and officially they are cousins. Short of doing a dna test they (and the world) won't know 100% they are siblings. Since they aren't having children there is no harm.
Jo
Evil men do as they please but men who are good can only do as they are allowed. -
avenelljen — 11 years ago(May 22, 2014 05:03 AM)
I agree with you, joeykeo: no children, no harm. If I met them, became friends with them, and found out, I wouldn't be judgmental. Actually, their relationship seems destined to me. The happiness and love they have together after such a toxic childhood - they deserve to be able to escape together. What I find interesting about the scenario is how Ivey and Charles would deal with Charles' father, Charlie, as the father and son have a special bond. I would think Charlie would be able to handle it. As Karen said, "everything is not cut and dried." After all, let's not be naive. There are a lot of crazy families with crazy history in this country - and in this world. What is amazing about this film is how beautifully the film captures and encapsulates what is all too often found when the curtain gets pulled aside and the facade is torn down.
-
amsyco13 — 11 years ago(May 12, 2014 01:08 PM)
Apparently everyone else in the thread thinks incest is normal.. you absolute weirdos.. I agree the original poster - its gross!
And YES its normal to think it is gross. Did you not see how Ivy reacted when she found out? She was horrified, disgusted and upset.
Seriously.this thread has made me feel a little sick to my stomach.
People are actually justifying incest? That is just foul.
I guess they would say it would OK for Jean and Steve to hook up too. So what that she was 14 and he had to be in his mid-40s.its their life!
And you make a wonderful point neonberryIvy herself was horrified when she found out.
Are you a bug Bill Murray?
-
joeykeo — 11 years ago(May 13, 2014 02:33 PM)
In this play in this situation. The two characters thought they were cousins. I'm pretty sure everyone has basically the same reaction as Ivy when they discover that the two of them are half siblings.
I don't know if she ever tells Charles the truth but it certainly seems like she is just leaving to continue on the plan of leaving going where no one knows them and starting over.
How do I feel personally about it? In real life I think incest (like most people) is absolutely a no. In this fictional situation up until that moment they thought they were cousins (which is weird in itself). Ivy can't have children which is the biggest reason that incest is not allowed. There is no risk of birth defects and complications. They were raised as cousins not siblings. That is the point of a dark drama like this. It takes away black and white and brings out all those grey areas in life that people don't like to think about.
According to all legal documents and records they are cousins. They were raised as cousins. They aren't having children. I'm not saying every brother and sister should be free to date but I am looking at very particular facts in this situation.
Again if they were raised as siblings and planned on having children it would be very different in my opinion. And obviously they realize even being cousins and dating/marrying is odd. That is part of why they are leaving town. So actual siblings adds to it. When I first watched the play I was just as horrified as Ivy.
I don't think anyone here is arguing for legalization of incest but we are trying to understand the characters and the emotions and what they are going through and how that relates to us.
I'm also pretty sure the FBI has better things to do.
Jo
Evil men do as they please but men who are good can only do as they are allowed. -
samymax — 11 years ago(May 25, 2014 09:32 AM)
- joeykeo
Beautiful Reply/ Totally agree with you. Thanks !
and what
@fiji5555 said
You do realize that we are all related to each other going by the DNA common in all people?
and
@jjcalzada -
Any problem solved is a new problem made. - Karl
- joeykeo