which was meant to be a quiet academic space, become a place where three separate fights are going on? No fighting, gen
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Cerridwen — 5 years ago(April 26, 2020 07:22 PM)
Unfortunately! We spent on entire week on Blake, Shelley, Addison, Fish, and Lewis in my
Paradise Lost
class. Fish's views are definitely unconventional. "It's
totally
not
because Milton's politics are suspiciously close to Lucifer's early speeches that people ponder his subconscious loyalties. He was just tricking everyone into falling alongside Adam and Eve. You fell for it because Milton is a genius, not because the way Lucifer is initially written bears some sort of questionable undercurrent." Sure, Fish. Whatever you say.
Hark! Harold the angel sings. -
dbentley666 — 5 years ago(April 26, 2020 07:25 PM)
Yes, Fish is a charlatan and a major ****-stirrer (I met him, years ago). My favourite Milton critic is probably Lewis, whom I worship this side of idolatry.
I had a Milton prof who used to get mad if you took Blake's side against (say) Lewis and argued that Milton was of the devil's party without knowing it. He'd give you a 3 hour lecture disproving that. -
Cerridwen — 5 years ago(April 26, 2020 07:37 PM)
I'm more a supporter of Blake's notion that "the reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of the Devil’s party without knowing it." I don't support it entirely, of course, but it's the closest reflection of my own views. I think Milton's depiction is flawed because he had to work within the confines of a flawed religion.
It's hard to write of free will when bound by the knowledge that it does not truly exist within humanity. God designs Adam and Eve with flaws which render them pre-fallen, and through granting them free will / refusing to correct his mistake or to satisfactorily intervene, has condemned them to damnation. Though God must allow Adam and Eve to remain free “till they enthrall themselves,” lest He “else must change / their nature and revoke the high decree” (3.125-126), His inaction determines the trajectory of mankind. In fashioning Adam and Eve with traits that render them susceptible to temptation, God enacts a form of pre-destination which results in the ultimate salvation of mankind.
Pre-determination is not merely implied within Paradise Lost, but is explicitly referenced within Book Three, wherein God proclaims:
Some I have chosen of peculiar grace
Elect above the rest: so is my will.
The rest shall hear me call and oft be warned
Their sinful state and to appease betimes
Th’ incensèd Deity while offered grace
Invites, for I will clear their sense dark
What may suffice and soften stony hearts
To pray, repent, and bring obedience due. (3.183-190)
Of particular interest are lines 183-184, which manifest the tenets of Calvinism suggesting that there are those among the general population who hold special favor with God and who are inherently “elect above the rest.” Thus does God already display pre-deterministic qualities: He is already aware that some shall possess greater qualities than others, chosen directly by Him, who are born inherently superior in grace and in morality.
The others, who have not been chosen, are rather merely warned of their sinfulness and are granted prevenient grace, which enables them to seek salvation in their fallen states. Adam and Eve do not display the qualities of the humans who are “elect above the rest,” but rather directly manifest the traits exhibited by the unchosen, for “prevenient grace descending had removed / the stony from their hearts” (11.3-4) following their post-fall repentance. Thus, in exhibiting the traits ascribed to those wallowing in “their sinful state,” the two are explicitly depicted as having not existed amongst the chosen elect.
Logically, it follows then that if Adam and Eve were intended by God to exist among the elect, they would have done so: as Noah, Adam and Eve would have functioned directly as role models for mankind rather than as warnings. Though the couple bears free will, as even the unchosen may choose to ignore the gift of prevenient grace, their existence as unchosen individuals—chiefly exhibited through the pre-fallen traits that render them susceptible to temptation—disallows them to fulfill the role of the chosen.
Hark! Harold the angel sings. -
dbentley666 — 5 years ago(April 26, 2020 07:49 PM)
Wow, very dense and complex! I agree (with you and Blake), although I really respect Lewis. It strikes me that Milton's tortured struggles to make sense of the religion he inherited are precisely what made him so great: a very Weberian thesis, of course. The Protestant Work Ethic is redeployed in the service of the production of a truly great poet.
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Cerridwen — 5 years ago(April 26, 2020 07:55 PM)
I agree! If Milton hadn't made Lucifer so compelling, I don't think he would have been as successful in his endeavour to reinvent Virgil and to pen the first English epic. I do have to laugh, however, that he was so annoyed with layman interpretation of his work that he began writing passive-aggressive explications.
Hark! Harold the angel sings. -
The Kurgan — 5 years ago(April 26, 2020 07:58 PM)
Virgil was an earlier incarnation of the devil Lucifer. Milton came latter. You want to know more incarnations of Lucifer?
I know some
Call me crazy but you'll realize i was right.
Virgil. Milton. Dante. Dionysus. Bacchus. Apollo. Mithra. ….
He cares about these helpless mortals? -
The Kurgan — 5 years ago(April 26, 2020 08:11 PM)
Philosophers of this age are adding more to the database of religion than ever before.
5000 years ago they came up with the theory of reincarnation.
These days they are working on simultaneous incarnation, reincarnation backwards in time, etc.
For example, you yourself might be an avatar of an immortal deity.
https://www.truthcontrol.com/articles/sequential-incarnations-vs-simultaneous-incarnations
https://steemit.com/philosophy/@cosmiccowboy/simultaneous-incarnations-are-they-real
This is very interesting
http://www.wisdomsdoor.com/rc4/hrc4-38.php
He cares about these helpless mortals? -
dbentley666 — 5 years ago(April 26, 2020 08:01 PM)
That phrase about "writing passive-aggressive explications" reminds me of Coleridge's Ancient Mariner, and those dreadful (and yet very Coleridgean and readable) prose glosses he wrote in fake mediaeval English!
I'm also reminded (by you saying Milton was inspired to rival Virgil) of Harold Bloom's thesis about the anxiety of influence. -
Cerridwen — 5 years ago(April 26, 2020 08:10 PM)
Speaking of Coleridge, have you ever tried to suffer through
Biographia Literaria
? It's a nonsensical, opium-addled nightmare of a glimpse into his brain. His half-formed philosophies are poor imitations of Kant's brilliance.
It's always been humourous to me that the poet who, alongside Wordsworth, championed the usage of the language of the common man in poetry was lambasted for using archaic terminology in
Rime of the Ancient Mariner
. What happened to the accessible optimism of
Lyrical Ballads
?
I've not yet read that thesis, but I will do so now. Do you have a link, or is it easily found online?
Hark! Harold the angel sings. -
dbentley666 — 5 years ago(April 26, 2020 08:19 PM)
I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit that I rather like Biographia Literaria! I know he lifted from Kant without acknowledgement, but some parts are so brilliantly written….
Bloom's book is called The Anxiety of Influence and it's very easy to get hold of. He's not always a very lucid writer (somewhat Blakean: lots of mysticism and Kabbalah and all that) but his basic thesis very interesting: basically a Freudian/Nietzschean assumption that all "strong" poets are caught up in an agonistic struggle against other strong poets. Presumably Milton's anxiety is triggered (in a good way) by Virgil and/or Shakespeare (but probably not Homer).