Help me understand correctly.
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The_Real_Walt_Jr — 10 years ago(July 31, 2015 10:16 PM)
Uhhhh no. They were not thrown under the bus. Nothing in the movie indicates that they were thrown under the bus either so I don't know where you got that from. Cops don't just let other cops die like that, ever heard of the thin blue line? Law Enforcement is not only a job, but a brotherhood.
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hernandez-t-elisa — 10 years ago(July 31, 2015 10:26 PM)
I got that from their captain explicitly threatening to throw them under the bus if they beep up, then again foreshadowed by van hausen telling them they'd get beep by the city when they mess up, and then I got it from the ICE guy telling them to mind their own business cause they were gonna pull the tail of snake that would bite back, then I got it from ICE having video footage of an actual drug lord putting a price on their heads and yet ICE never reported it or warned them about (try moving them to paperwork for awhile or something) and lastly I got it from the other cops taking a realllly long time to show up at the apartment complex
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christiannyblom — 10 years ago(August 03, 2015 11:20 AM)
What the Captain said was simply a statement that when a cop shoots someone, it is considered a homicide untill an I.A. investigation clears you.
If you shoot someone "by the book", he's got your back. But if you unjustly kill a civilian, they he'll let you out to dry, because then you deserve it.
This was in referance to the shooting during the opening credits and monologue. For which Taylor and Zavala were cleared.
I never got the impression they were thrown under the bus either. -
Adam87 — 10 years ago(August 11, 2015 03:49 AM)
Even still, there was a lot of foreshadowing. It may not have been their department that threw them under the bus. It's unclear in the movie, but it is a possibility. The cartels and government agencies are not strangers to each other and can co-operate.
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hernandez-t-elisa — 10 years ago(August 12, 2015 05:30 AM)
I definitely don't think there was any collusion. They seem like a tightnit group but anyone could change sides when being threatened by the cartel But I'm mainly thinking it was ICE who hung them out to dry and the rest of the dept was being held up unknowingly. I watched Training Day recently and I'm even more convinced now since it seems like David Ayer like the "trust no man" concept and he poisons the well of the brotherhood
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TerraFirma69 — 10 years ago(August 11, 2015 10:32 PM)
I got that from their captain explicitly threatening to throw them under the bus if they beep up
You can't seriously have taken that to mean he would wilfully abandon them, neglect their safety or let them get hurt can you?
then whoa, differences -
hernandez-t-elisa — 10 years ago(August 12, 2015 05:27 AM)
Not exactly. I took it as foreshadowing that something like that would happen later. The late response just can't be a coincidence to me. I don't think it was their dept though, I think it was ICE who somehow got involved and let the cartel get rid of the "two city cops"
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TerraFirma69 — 10 years ago(August 12, 2015 03:56 PM)
I'm reluctant to read anything into the response time. I'm inclined to think it was simply a cartel hit, no LAPD or ICE involvement whatsoever. It's not worth speculation for me when it was not addressed in the slightest in the movie.
And was the response time quite reasonable, and our guys were just panicked so it seemed like too long? I've just given that scene a re-watch, and it could well be as simple as that.
then whoa, differences -
TerraFirma69 — 10 years ago(August 13, 2015 12:21 AM)
Ah right I remember. I assumed that was just to keep us the audience up to date. In keeping with the 'found footage' theme of the movie, it had to come from somewhere so why not ICE surveillance footage?
It's
possible
that ICE may have neglected to warn them on purpose (pretty cold though, and would it really have been necessary?), but I still don't think the LAPD was involved at any level.
How would you purposely slow down their response time, realistically? Every link in the response chain is going to be asked some pretty serious questions after two cops are gunned down, it just seems like a very unreliable and sloppy way to ensure their deaths.
then whoa, differences -
JudgeNotLestYeBeJudgeReinhold — 9 years ago(July 28, 2016 05:07 PM)
What he meant by "throw you under the bus" was that he wouldn't cover for them if they were in a position to lose their jobs. As in, he would t go to bat for them if they were in the wrong. Not that he'd allow them to be beep ing killed lol.
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conrrad — 10 years ago(November 26, 2015 12:13 AM)
Absolutely not, 'hernandez-t-elisa' - No, "IF there is ever a doubt, then there is no doubt."
Note that whenever any movie portrays what you describe, there is never any doubt whatsoever. They hit us over the head to make sure we know exactly what is going wrong when it is such a crucial point as this would have been. Movie-makers always, always hit us over the head with important points - they craft them to be obvious to the most obtuse, clue-less of viewers.
It simply seemed that the normal problems with coordination and communication was responsible for that ICE Video not being adequate warning - it took too long. There is no possible way that these two were "allowed to be killed" by their superiors or ICE.
After all, the murder of two police officers like this is bad, bad, bad for all police and all departments - it would represent are far worse result for them than 'saving them because they had adequate time and warning'.
And the response time was actually pretty fast - they were on the run and their location changed as fast as they informed dispatch.
Mainly, though, with a movie like this that so obviously pushes 'plausibility' (even in the worst South Central patrols, no officers have that many major events and cases, etc., in an 8-month period - does not happen) - and so definitely could have tried to push in the implausible 'allowed to be killed' - whenever something that important is part of the plot, the audience is definitely made aware of it with zero doubts. -
Enforcer82g — 10 years ago(March 11, 2016 09:37 PM)
Right after Taylor and Zavala called in to Dispatch on the landline, they left the apartment building. Sending officers from other patrol areas takes time, even when they're responding Code 3 (Lights and siren). The officers were also on the move at the time, with no way to keep Dispatch updated on their location. That means responding officers had to search the area for them, which also takes time. It's hard to pinpoint where small arms fire is coming from in an urban environment since the sound reflects off of buildings, especially when the fire is sporadic, as it mostly was after Taylor and Zavala left the apartment building.
As far as ICE having the phone intercept and surveillance video, same answer: Time. Intelligence data has to be sent back to the parent agency by the officer that collected it. Methods vary, and some take a lot longer than others, especially when the officer in the field is under cover. Dead drops may have to be used, among other things. Once the data gets back to the parent agency, it has to be reviewed by an analyst. The cell phone intercept would also have to go to a Spanish translator to be translated and transcribed, then sent back to the analyst. It's entirely plausible that ICE either did not have the data back from the officer in the field when Taylor and Zavala were ambushed, or that it had not been reviewed and recognized for what it was by that time, or both.
Bottom line, I never got the impression that Taylor and Zavala were hung out to dry. They were caught in a very bad situation, and under the circumstances, it was very fortunate they weren't both killed. -
hernandez-t-elisa — 10 years ago(November 27, 2015 09:45 AM)
If ICE had the video footage and they had basically already taken the case away from the LAPD, why didn't they at least warn the LAPD to give the cops a leave of absence or office work until the case was resolved?
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goodpatron123 — 9 years ago(May 15, 2016 02:03 PM)
I agree with you, and was equally skeptical. The ICE info re: serious cartel business was definite foreshadow, and the footage was no mistake. USA Gov't could have easily forewarned them, as the Blood did.
Perhaps it might've compromised their investigation, making the cartels too aware of their surveillance. I do think USA was inclined to let the cops become casualties, especially as they had already compromised their "POI". Furthermore, they could use that as further evidence to build cases of not just trafficking, but organized homicide, against officials, no less. Personally, I think it's a combination.
Regardless, we must remember two things:
a) People are highly uninformed if they think "The Brotherhood" has a true code of honor that will outweigh personal safety, and often personal gain. This is particularly true if the opposition is more powerful, a la "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." Furthermore, each branch views each other differentlyand each department withinand each level/rank within those It continues.
This happens with all structures (ingroups vs outgroups), and can also be easily noticed in politics, military, geographical territory, etc. That said, ICE gives few beep about "lowly cops". Detectives barely do.
b) This movie is essentially meant to show us a multi-faceted view of the days and lives of Southland street cops. We are not meant to understand everything, nor fully agree (or even sympathize) with everything. There are meant to be questions left unanswered, as is true Art; not meant to be "tied up nicely." It is to show possibilities, choices, different perspectives, and truly how to coexist [in Southland] for survival's sake. We, the viewers, are meant to be privy to a bit of an insider's view, in order to gain understanding, EMpathy, thus some appreciation (and they hope, respect) for the whole operation.
A final note to further validate your/our pov: Recall the "Officer
in trouble" scene, where the big assailant (resembling Big Ego) stabbed Van-whoever in the eye, and gouged/destroyed the face [and career] of "Boot" (the rook) Jake's character had to signal off the air unit, WHILE the guy was being arrested. For comparison's sake, in the tragic shootout scene, he also requested an air unit which did not show. Not only do those choppers STAY hovering in Southland, but one can also assume that AIR traffic was not worse at that time.
NONE of our observations are accidental. -
goodpatron123 — 9 years ago(May 15, 2016 02:35 PM)
Apologies, apparently it was "Big Evil", which I'd refused to believe.
Not only bc it is a ridiculous name (though only slightly less so than "Big Ego" LOL), but also bc I [clearly] misunderstood when the cop asked him the origin of his name, and he replied, 'I guess because it's big', or 'because I have a big one', or something to that effect.