*potential spoilers* Weak script and poor choices by the director
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timothee1 — 13 years ago(December 19, 2012 08:10 AM)
There is most definitely a clear sense of isolation both Jane & Sadie experience in there starkly contrasting lives. I think the porn scene was critical to the movie not being trite. Up until that point, I was wondering if it was just going to be a cross of Driving Miss Daisy and Star 80. Which also made me wonder what Mariel Hemingway had to say about her daughter deciding to make this film.
I also did not believe Jane thought she deserved the money. I think she slowly came to see how she could use the money in a way that was meaningful to both Sadie and her. When she was considering the car purchase and chose not to after receiving the call from SadieI think that was a turning point. -
pflagger — 12 years ago(April 26, 2013 08:13 PM)
No, I didn't say that. I said she was far from what kind of person I am and the people I know.
Haven't you ever seen a move with an unsympathetic character, one who acts like an a$$hole? You know, the kind of person you wouldn't like if you met them in real life? The kind of person who calls strangers on the Internet "total bitch" just because they disagree about some movie? Well, I would have a harder time sympathizing with that kind of person in a movie than the kind of person I would like, even if the person is the protagonist. -
sailorman13 — 12 years ago(July 21, 2013 02:26 PM)
Yes, you did say that.
"It
made me feel less empathy for the main character because it's so far from what kind of person I am
and (hopefully) the people I know."
How do you know how far she is from the kind of person you are? You make a judgement like that based on one aspect of a person, i.e., their job choice? Or, as I suspect, you make a whole boatload of presumptions about a person, based on one aspect of their lives. IOW, you'r a presumptuous, judgemental, moralistic bit. Oh, never mind.
But guess what? I'll bethca' there are a couple of people you know who aren't that far from the main character. Given different circumstances, I'll bet there are people you know who would do porn. You don't know anyone as well as you think you do. You'd be well advised to remember that. -
pflagger — 12 years ago(July 21, 2013 06:32 PM)
Wait, didn't I just answer this one (well, a few months ago)? Thanks for the lighter tone though.
Again, I did not say that the character had to be like ME for me to SYMPATHIZE with her. I said that she was FAR from what kind of person I am AND THE PEOPLE I KNOW, and that made me feel LESS EMPATHY for her. So I included the people I know, not just me. So I never said she had to be like me. People I know means people who are in my life, so, you know, people I kind of like. (Again, this doesn't mean these people have to be like me!) And this character isn't just kinda sorta not like these people, but FAR from it. And this made me feel LESS empathy, not NO empathy (and SYMPATHY was not mentioned in my original post). Everything clear now? Actually reading what is written helps so much, don't you find?
Now to your new point. I did even write the word 'hopefully' in my first post, as in 'hopefully the people I know aren't like this'. You're right, one can never know. Obviously, there are many different levels of friendship and familiarity with the people in one's life. The people who are closer to me are the ones I'm talking about here, generally. On the other hand though, 'given different circumstances' people run concentration camps, don't they? See Stanford prison experiment etc. So that's kind of a bullsht argument. -
sailorman13 — 12 years ago(July 22, 2013 11:40 AM)
So basically, your contention is that if a character is to evoke empathy from you, he/she needs to be like you or those you know. To fall short of that is considered by you to be a shortcoming, to some degree or another, of the movie.
Is that about right? It must be. For if it isn't, then your OP was entirely pointless.
Being human isn't enough similarity for you? You don't subscribe to the concept of ALL people, at their core, being much the same in terms of emotional needs? You don't buy all that stuff about he universality of the human spirit? Well, good luck with that. I feel sorry for you(despite the fact that you're evidently nothing like me or my friends). It must be difficult to find movies featuring people with outward characteristics similar to you and your friends.
And, I'm familiar with the Stanford prison experiment, as well as other similar experiments that show the malleability of people under extreme or contrived circumstances. My point was that it's presumptuous to think that you know all that much about your friends. People have secrets. People put up fronts. How do you know that one or more of your friends isn't a secret escort or phone sex worker? You don't. Would you feel less empathy for them tomorrow if you find out today that they were?
Bottom line is that there's something wrong with someone unable to empathize or sympathize with another because of the job they do or any equally superficial characteristic. That's the thinking at the root of most of the strife in the world. There's a fine line between your attitude and the attitudes of those who engage in religious conflicts or those who turn their backs on the plight of people from different cultures or races. "Who cares about them? They're nothing like me or my friends." Sound familiar? -
pflagger — 12 years ago(July 22, 2013 10:49 PM)
Wow, you're just twisting this all kinds of ways. Lets dial it back to movies. Are you seriously telling me that you feel the same amount of empathy towards all kinds of characters in movies? Even rapists, killers, people who abuse children etc? Have you heard about the concept of identifying with the protagonist in a work of fiction? It's sort of a core idea. A lot of fiction is based on it. (This movie certainly is.) Lets even forget about the extreme stuff like rapists etc. I'm sure you have met people you dislike, people who behave like jerks. How about if the protagonist in this movie consistently behaved like a jerk, a complete idiot, to all the people she met, and yet the movie still hinged on whether you as a viewer identified with her? Are you telling me this couldn't happen? That you would have the same kind of empathy no matter what? I don't believe it for a second. And if it were true, I don't want to thing about what that would mean in your life.
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eddyhuxster — 12 years ago(April 25, 2013 10:10 PM)
I saw a interview that baker did with the redcarpet.He states that the film is made for adults.It was influenced by the Neo realism movement set in europe .Another reason he states for having it in there simply because in the u.k and other countries like it .He was able to get away with it and he expressed since in todays age.Porn is just a mouse click away so what's the big deal.Implying that he knows what hes showing is porn.Then in the same breath repeats to the interviewer that :this is not porn.He also points out that the actors were comfortable with it which is all that matters to him.So according to him it seems like it was more a personal decision then a professional one.
He was asked how he came up with the concept of the movie and it explained it in two parts.The original story is based on a true story that happend to a family member.They found this old ladies purse with 20,000 bucks in it the family member in question.Turns to another relative who just so happens to be a lawyer what they should do with the money.That's where the story comes from and because it was set in silicone valley.He threw in the adult industry angle so basically its a film about the adult industry.The part about jane making friends with the older woman is just to hook you into the story;about the adult industry.It's a catch 22.
"What's real? What's not? That's what I do in my act, test how other people deal with reality" -
tb-balla — 12 years ago(April 29, 2013 12:18 AM)
This movie is saying , look: not all pornsatrs are trashy bimbos with beep boyfriends. Also, the porn scenes were played by double, I am pretty sure. The beep roommate was invented to have Sadie learn the truth. Also as a contrast to the main character.
The grave scene was great.
I don't think this movie is about the porn industry hahah. Porn is just a sub plot. Which served no particular purposes in my opinion. Maybe the writers want people to learn about the industry.
Haters gonna hate -
eddyhuxster — 12 years ago(April 29, 2013 07:04 AM)
"I don't think this movie is about the porn industry "
"This movie is saying , look: not all pornsatrs are trashy bimbos with beep boyfriends."
If it's not about the porn industry then why the contradiction ?
You obviously saw it being about the porn industry or else you wouldn't of made that comment.The writer was the director of this film the interview with sean baker.He does say that's what the movie is about and he also made it soo people would learn about the adult industry.Your way of seeing this film is the way it was intended to be see.Tb-balla what did you think about dree hemingways performance as and actress? On a scale of 1-10 how would you rate the performances of sadie,jane, and melissa? Jane working in the porn industry as a profession i excepted as her background.In my opinion what served no particular purpose was having .What jane did spelled out for us like we are a bunch kids who haven't been exposed to pornography before.
Look at the times we live in sex is everywhere,whether your a prude or not.You've seen it on some level in some form.Overall though i thought it was a good movie could of been so much better.It seemed like there was so much that director/writer didn't bother touching on.Like why did jane enter into sadie's life ? she could of just as easily.Forgot about her i didn't see any grey area in that part of the story.For someone that acted like jane did why not have her spend the money instead.Then over time have guilt set in and show her trying to redeem herself by helping the older out.That would of made alot more sense too me .The relationships should been commited to more and .Less when it came to the adult industry which has enough attention payed to it already.Porn stars are adults so they know what they are getting into.They chose that life for some reason or another.There is no need to feel bad for them because,that is what they want.
It's different if the people involved in a black market sex trade cause that.In most cases is a form of slavery.That is something to sympathise with ,those people im sure hate living that life but.Are forced into it so they have no choice.Being a porn on the other hand is all about choices those people chose that life.Whether they are smart or bimbos or whatever they want to be where they are.
A man should look for what is and not for what he thinks should be." -
tb-balla — 12 years ago(April 29, 2013 10:14 PM)
Well, I did mention that the porn industry bit was just a sub-plot.
This movie is really about a friendship formed in an unusual circumstance. The fact that they are so different makes this friendship even more fascinating.
It's not really focused on the porn industry, really. -
mothnm — 13 years ago(January 07, 2013 07:44 AM)
Dree went the same way her mother Mariel did, following bad advice from aunt/sister Margaux whose experience was that you had to get boob jobs and take trashy roles to work in Hollywood. Mariel had been in a Woody Allen film and still trusted bottoming out, jealous sis, or so the gossip went. Sad. Margaux actually had some interesting footage in her B roles. Mariel could have had multiple amazing roles of her generation because she took risks but didn't seem trashy until she took trashy roles. Time will tell if Dree can rise.
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ferrisb1-1 — 12 years ago(April 29, 2013 08:38 PM)
Actually, this movie avoided all the cliches other movies of this type would have trotted out in an effort to make Jane, and even Sadie more sympathetic and as a result, less realistic.
Jane/Tess has no reservations about being a porn actress. In fact, she loves it. She smiles when Abrash tells her she made the cover of their latest release, had the highest number of pre-orders and will be his number one girl at the porn convention. She isn't a typical runaway who was "forced into the porn industry". She chose this life, enjoys it and isn't looking for something better e.g. to get out and lead a "normal" life. Most other films would give us the tired, Julia Roberts/Porn actress-with-a-heart-of-gold-stuck-in-the-life character which is far more unrealistic than those who are actually IN the porn industry by choice.
Sadie isn't some female savant who used to be some hot shot professor at UCLA, or other nonsense. She experienced heart break, but that wasn't the sole reason she "retreated from life". She is just eighty-something, and when people are near the end of their lives they stop caring to a certain degree. It doesn't make them bad, it just is what it is. Again, realistic.
The biggest cliche it avoided was the bitchy roommate not only finding the money, but then taking the money for herself (and her sleazy boyfriend/pimp) and "ruining" Jane's chances for "a better life". That would be the ultimate cliche and this is what I thought they were doing when the roommate found the money, but they didn't go that route, thankfully. Again, it comes back to having more realistic characters who don't need/want the money for "a better life".
The end scene ties the two characters together because it shows Sadie is not perfect either She lied about having kids But at this point it doesn't matter. For either of them. Jane is a good person despite her chosen profession which to a big segment of society is considered bad and immoral. Sadie also realizes Jane finding the money was a good thing in the end because it was the catalyst for their friendship and for helping Sadie live life again. That's why she forgives her (indirectly) and lets her in.
Could they have fleshed out the characters more?
Maybe, but then it might turn into the typical feel-good movie this is the exact opposite of at least in its portrayals of the characters.
Could the sex scene be cut down?
Sure, but it's there for the audience to experience what Jane does first-hand. It's one thing for other characters to talk about the porn industry and a completely different thing to experience Jane's job first-hand. This is what helps make her character more real coupled with the other things talked about above. -
Pequod88 — 12 years ago(May 09, 2013 09:44 AM)
"[T]his movie avoided all the cliches other movies of this type would have trotted out in an effort to make Jane, and even Sadie more sympathetic and as a result, less realistic."
There's not much to add to your thoughtful post, which touches on the strengths of this little gem of a film. While many may find the character study slow and somewhat uneventful, I found it be honest and to ring true. I, too, worried that the story would fall into the cliche of "bitchy roommate steals the cash," in the name of having a flimsy plot upon which to hang the successful character study. I was pleased that this was not the case.
The leads were quite good. Easy melodrama was avoided, as was a finger-wagging condemnation of the porn industry. Well shot and acted, Starlet never overplays its hand, trying to be more than a thoughtful and at times moving character study of two interesting women. -
pococo — 12 years ago(June 16, 2013 07:33 AM)
a great assessement,
ferrisb1-1
!
the porn angle serves to address why she doesn't go 'looking for love'the raison d'tre of practically any movie or tv show. she doesnt't strive to define or complete herself through a lover. she obviously enjoys sex (or at least has no problem with it). their quest for emotional fulfillment are met by what each seeks from the other. if that's not rrue love, what is? -
CocktailQueen — 12 years ago(June 16, 2013 06:01 AM)
"This is one of those movies where there will be talk about the "risks" Dree Hemingway took. When an actress actually performs sexual acts the talk is about her bravery for taking risks - remember Chloe Sevigny and The Brown Bunny?"
Except Hemingway never performed actual sex acts. She used a body double.
Jesus Christ I am in awe at the number of ignorant people on this board who think that just because the protagonist works in the adult industry, she's suddenly unlikable or unsympathetic. Get a grip.