My take on what was really going on ***SPOLIERS***
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!!!deleted!!! (58906484) — 10 years ago(July 21, 2015 04:24 PM)
So children go missing but Lilly ran away. I agree with you. So she states that the "blame game" was a big part of what the script explored? However, people were beaten, kids went missing, and there was a young girl with issues.
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greg-goremykin — 10 years ago(July 21, 2015 05:06 PM)
Yeah, the director didn't really connect the dots much in that interview! And though she talks like it was her script, she didn't even get a story credit on it, let alone anything on the script. Some of the critic reviews I've read seem to agree with our take, too, and one even made the comment that the director at times didn't seem to understand the scenes she was directing, so maybe there was a bit of a disconnect between her and the two screenwriters?
One critic review in particular said the plot led the viewer to believe first that one of the many men Lily was sleeping with had taken her, then that the father had both molested her and was also the cause of her disappearance, and finally that the mother was the molester/kidnapper/murderer, but in the end with Lily having just left in an unknown person's car that the point kind of became moot.
They also pointed out something that I hadn't thought of, how completely insane it would have been for Lily to just leave her younger brother to die out in that wasteland all by himself; she may have had some major issues, but nothing in her character portrayed her as being that callous, especially with the affection she'd shown her brother in the video the mom watched later and in the earlier scenes with both of the children together. -
greg-goremykin — 10 years ago(July 22, 2015 12:35 AM)
You're probably right but it just had so many otherwise inexplicable actions on the part of both parents, I couldn't resist shoe-horning in some theory that made half-a$$ sense of it. It liked it, too, but I have to admit, the novelty of ambiguous endings that really seemed to take off after Inception is starting to feel less like audience participation and more like lazy screenwriting. As a bit of an author myself a good emotionally-satisfying ending is the most difficult part of story writing, but is also the biggest payoff. Thanks for the input!
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!!!deleted!!! (58906484) — 10 years ago(July 22, 2015 06:31 AM)
I will agree on the Aboriginal/Celtic mysticism. I will grant the whole mother earth bigger than humanity aspect of the movie. It was shot is such away that is one conclusion that you could have. Definitely bleak.
However, Lilly was abused and most likely Tom was as well. The only constants are the parents during their lives hence one of them or both could have abused the children. For various reasons I side with OP in terms of his Pedo-Mommy theories.
In the final analysis I must conclude that the Scriptwriters and certainly the Director wanted to recreate the feeling of the parents where the children go missing. They simply just do not know. Not Knowing is central to this movie.
So here is my take, Lilly and Tom were both molested by Mommy dearest. Dad begins to understand that his wife is sick and loses interest in her. Lilly finally seduces "helpless" teacher and the creates a stink. Dad beats the teacher and everyone agrees to let it go. Sort of?
The Teachers wife gets him to call Lilly for old times sake. They meet in the desert Lilly gets in the car and leave Tommy boy in the dust. Wifey dearest jumps out from the back seat and murders Lilly. The land will eventually swallow Lilly up and know will ever know. Closure! -
greg-goremykin — 10 years ago(July 22, 2015 01:33 PM)
I really liked where they were going with the aboriginal angle, it reminded me a bit of Peter weir's "The Last Wave", too, and was hoping they'd go further in that direction, exploring the idea of "The Dreaming" or more about the Rainbow Serpent, too. When it ended up the Lily just left in a car it was a little bit of a letdown but I supposed the car wasn't ruled out as a supernatural manifestation entirely either.
I completely agree with all the other things you've written, great insights! -
ReganRebecca — 10 years ago(July 22, 2015 07:06 AM)
I don't buy the mother molested the daughter theory at all, there's literally no evidence to support it.
The father letting the children go: he said when he confessed to the wife that he saw it happen that he felt angry towards them (and this was obvious in the early scenes) so he just let them go. He didn't mention it to anyone because he was ashamed of feeling that way and from the beginning he believed it was the same as before and that the daughter had run away to be with some guy and they would find her quickly.
The wife obviously did have sexual issues but she was grieving she was craving being touched and comforted something she was not getting from her cold and distant husband (even after they had sex he orgasmed quickly and then did nothing to help her leaving her frustrated). Also it makes no sense that you would assume she was a pedophile because she tried to initiate sex with three adult men??? That isn't the same thing at all.
Also I think you way misinterpreted the scene between the grandmother and the mother outside the grocery story. Catherine was desperate at that point she was seeking a mystical explanation and answer. The old woman shut her down and told her there just wasn't one and that kids sometimes disappear. It was actually a good take down of the "Magical negro" trope.
I think you're taking the suggestion that Lily was molested in really weird ways. Ultimately I think it was either a red herring or if it was long-term something that happened by someone who wasn't in the family if it happened at all (I still believe that the relationship with the teacher accounts for her overly sexual behaviour). Remember that the person who thought she was molested was Hugo Weaving's character who never actually met Lily in person. Catherine ran with the suggestion because she was terrified at that point and her husband was acting in a way that was incomprehensible to her. -
!!!deleted!!! (58906484) — 10 years ago(July 22, 2015 08:02 AM)
Also it makes no sense that you would assume she was a pedophile because she tried to initiate sex with three adult men???
Mrs. Parker initiated sex with a very young man with a 'cognitive disability' and this is form of rape.
Rape
A criminal offense defined in most states as forcible sexual relations with a person against that person's will. Consent is a big part of the crime. Bridie could not really consent because his cognitive impairment. To put bluntly you can not have sex with people with cognitive impairments. They can not give consent and neither can minors. Furthermore, a spouse may be convicted of rape if the perpetrator forces the other spouse to have nonconsensual sex. As an footnote "Gone with the Wind" tackles this subject. -
greg-goremykin — 10 years ago(July 22, 2015 01:41 PM)
Agree completely; my point remains, if the husband were shown to be a rapist/sexual predator the way the wife was, the audience would have no trouble whatsoever making the very small leap to him being capable of molestation of his minor children by sole virtue of his being a man rather than a woman. But the wife gets a complete pass. It's a really glaring double-standard.
Sexual predators don't take the feelings or emotions or wishes of others into consideration, it's part of the pathology. They are capable of absolutely anything no matter how depraved if it furthers satisfying their own sexual urges and desires because of this basic lack of human empathy and respect.
The fact that people have such a hard time accepting that Kidman's character could do such a horrendous thing despite the horrendous behavior she has on display in other scenes betrays a very sick, sick bias in our society. She didn't just "initiate contact", she sexually assaulted that mentally-challenged fellow, and the police officer. Consent isn't just something for men to worry about, ffs!
From Richard Roeper's review in the Chicago Sun-Times: "Catherine spirals into a zombie-like state as she obsesses over Lillys shocking diary, and at one point even puts on her daughters clothes and engages in an unbelievably sordid encounter with one of the men who was with her daughter." She was obviously sexually stimulated by her daughter's clothing before the handicapped man ever entered the scene. Again, if the father had been obviously aroused fondling Lily's clothes exactly how would a typical viewer interpret this??
Spot on again AmbitiousPawn. -
!!!deleted!!! (58906484) — 10 years ago(July 22, 2015 02:32 PM)
It is the problem of beauty and specifically beautiful woman. Ted Bundy was such a shocker because he was great looking and highly intelligent which made it hard correlate him the abhorrent behavior. Beautiful people always get a pass. This is actually a psychosocial phenomenon which well known and manipulated daily in advertising.
Putting Beauty back in the box, we are simply asked who has displayed unacceptable behavior? Not implied but actual behavior on the screen that we can point to as evidence of some pathology? Mrs. Parker tried to seduce the slow kid! If the Bridie is 18 years old and has mental age of 15 or less then Mrs. Parker was committing an act of rape or sexual assault. I think Bridie's mental age is depressed 25% which would mentally 13.5 years old. Remember that IQ is mental age divided chronological age so maybe Bridie is 14years old? RAPE! He can not consent. -
greg-goremykin — 10 years ago(July 24, 2015 06:14 PM)
Here's a little more reality, literally, to inject into the discussion:
"In 2001, the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System developed by the Children's Bureau in the United States found that approximately 903,000 children were victims of maltreatment, and 10 per cent of them, or a little more than 90,000 were sexually abused. In these approximately 90,000 cases it was found that 59 per cent of the perpetrators of the abuse were women and 41 per cent were men, statistics that reflect international findings."
So women sexually abusing children isn't the odd case, it's by far the norm, with men acting as abusers being a considerably rarer occurrence. And yet, I would bet anything at all that the average person off the street would believe the exact opposite to be true despite all the gathered evidence pointing to the contrary. Why?
The problem of beauty as you explained it is probably much to blame for this, as well as those bizarre double-standards that have unfortunately been on full display in the comments section for this film, where consent is a completely foreign concept when a woman's quest for sexual gratification is at stake.
The sexual abuse I suffered myself, which occurred between the ages of 2 or 3 until 6 years of age, was perpetrated by a completely normal looking, in fact quite attractive, normal acting teenaged girl who was our family's babysitter, starting when she was 13 or 14 to 17 about the last person on Earth that we'd expect, even though statistics clearly show that she was exactly the person we should most expect.
The abuse finally ended when she made the mistake of performing oral sex on me in the presence of one of her friends that luckily for me recognized it for the aberrant behavior it was. My parents dealt with it quietly, I guess they thought it was for the best of all involved, and it was 1976 so a very different time as well.
We live in a sick society, and women aren't immune to this sickness of being sexual predators and molesters of children in particular, and in far greater numbers than men, and unfortunately, it's innocent children that are suffering because of the blinders we collectively, inexplicably, choose to put on. -
!!!deleted!!! (58906484) — 10 years ago(July 25, 2015 07:29 AM)
That is always the problem when a stereotype behavior it is contradiction of sorts. My favorite example of "stereotype behavior blindness" is Female Spousal abuse. This where the man gets beaten and the woman gets a pass. According to a source is completely under reported. I would mention emotion and verbal abuse but it would fall mostly of deaf ears. I suggest to look at it from a human being and behavior perspective. Mrs. Parker's behavior is a clue at best and criminal at worst. The teacher and the overage boys raped Lilly. Bridie? That is matter of consent.
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ginger-51 — 10 years ago(February 01, 2016 06:28 AM)
Only problem is that the study you quote is lumping physical and sexual abuse together in their stats. yes, women DO the greater portion of abuse, because women (at least in the US) tend to be home with the kids more and thus are subject to more frustration in terms of parenting.They are statistically more likely to haul off and hit the child when they get overwhelmed. However, the FAR greater percentage of sexual abuse happens at the hands of men. It's extremely rare for women to be the sole perpetrator of sexual abuse. They occasionally assist their partner in sexual abuse, but it's pretty rare for them to do it on their own. I used to work on a sex offender treatment team when I was in grad school.
In my opinion, you have a pretty good interpretation of the story, except that I don't necessarily agree that the mom was molesting her kids. Maybe the screenwriters intended us to think that she was, even though it's unlikely in real life (movies often go for the most intense possibility even if it's highly unlikely) but I just don't see evidence of it in the actions in the film. However, I DO think the mom was extremely unstableunpredictableloving at times and hostile and insane at others. And that could easily lead to emotional or physical abuse of one or both kids. I mean, we saw her shake and smack her traumatized son when he was extremely weak. And after she left the room, he told his dad that the reason he didn't tell her what he knew was because he was scared. Of mom's reaction? Possibly. Likely, in my opinion. A crazy, unpredictable mother could create such an unsafe family environment that the two kids could run away, for sure.
Also, I'm not sure that the movie intends us to see this, but often when an adolescent female is acting out in a sexually provocative manner with older men, it's less about the actions of that girl's mother, and more about the actions of her father. An emotionally distant or physically absent father can cause a young woman to seek the approval of any man, and she probably hasn't learned to value any other part of herself thanks to inconsistent parenting so she sees value in the characteristic that the men respond to first and foremost: her physical body. She learns that is the way to get men to pay attention. We don't know what her father was like before the incident with the teacher, but he was certainly emotionally (and often physically) absent during the events of the movie. And there were comments about trouble between the parents prior to the incident with the teacher, toothat Nicole Kidman was out of control when she was young too, and that her husband always seemed uncomfortable. -
MidnightThud — 10 years ago(July 26, 2015 06:50 AM)
The touching in the night could also just be the daughter exploring herself and her sexual awakening. Also if the wife was a molester, would she really give the book to the cop?
I didn't see the wife as molester of the girl but there are certainly parallels with their sexual urges, and use of sex as an emotional outlet, remembering the husband several times mentions her loose past when they were younger. -
MidnightThud — 10 years ago(July 26, 2015 01:24 PM)
I think she cried when reading the book because she recognised the daughter was going through the same mental and emotional strain she did which is why we see her get drunk and dress up like the daughter/herself as a young teen and the attempted seduction of the Aboriginal boy was part of the role play.
Most of us know women like this. part loving the attention from men but also loathing it and the lack of real, lasting and honest intimacy they receive.
I just think the molestations theories are stretching.