So Cromwell Loves…
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SedateProf — 10 years ago(April 24, 2015 12:14 AM)
This discussion of whether a particular person from history should be cast heroically or deeply flawed brings to mind something a faculty colleague told me many years ago which I've seen confirmed by various screenwriters and historian-consultants to movies: the REAL people of REAL history were usually heroes only in comparison to their contexts and time in history.and if historians kept movie scripts totally faithful to the facts, general audiences would be horrified and leave the movie theatre thinking that ALL of the characters were terrible villains. So, to make the characters "relatable" and eligible for hero status by audiences in our time, they have to be "sanitized" and made to seem much more heroic than they actually were.
I remember seeing that same point made about a movie concerning one of the Crusades from just a few years ago. Despite what general audiences think they know about the Crusades, virtually all of the actual historical characters on BOTH sides of the conflicts, were brutal, cruel, heartless, and despicable by modern day standards. So screenwriters usually choose events where the intended protagonist seems like a hero and then "cleans them up" even moreeven if they have to fudge considerably to spin them into the story's "good guy."
I used to hate any movie or TV program that altered anything but minor historical facts. I still have my frustrations with any film depiction which fudges the factsbut having discussed it with colleagues who've been involved in film projects as advisors, I've come to see their point. We can't expect modern day audiences to take a few relevant history and civilization courses before watching a movie so that they can more accurately assess the virtues and flaws of the various characters (i.e., those based on historical persons.)
Therefore, consider this: few audiences complain when a movie depicts Julius Caesar speaking English, even though everybody knows that the language wouldn't exist until many centuries many later. Most critics don't even complain all that much if Caesar has a British accent while Brutus has a more neutral American accent. In fact, a director may chooses a very proper, educated-sounding Oxford accent for the great orator Cato while the lowly centurions speak in a very colloquial Cockney accent, critics may even praise the film for helping the audience remain continually mindful of the various social classes and tiers of Roman society. So liberties are taken in order to help the audience understand the underlying social dynamics.
To my historian colleagues, the ethics, character flaws, and relative virtues of the characters must be similarly conceptualized to our time so that the audience can better understand who was heroic and who was fiendish in the historical context of their own society. So rather than remind the audience that the ancient protagonist could be almost as heartless and vicious as the antagonists in similar contexts, even more liberties are often taken to "translate" heroes and villains into our concepts of heroism and fiendishness.
So whatever one's position on historical accuracy, hearing a film's historical advisor perspective on why he/she took liberties has given me a greater respectand even a greater tolerancefor the difficulties and compromises a screen-writer faces. -
akameridians — 10 years ago(July 24, 2015 09:52 AM)
Historically, Cromwell brokered a marriage between Seymour and Henry. Now in the series this angling started well before the beheading of Anne. I think that's why they showed her being studied by him so much.
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akameridians — 10 years ago(July 24, 2015 09:59 AM)
Historically, Cromwell brokered a marriage between Seymour and Henry. Now in the series this angling started well before the beheading of Anne. I think that's why they showed her being studied by him so much.
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MissBono — 11 years ago(February 07, 2015 07:32 AM)
I think his love/lust lies with his sister-in-law, the mistress you mention.
The playful flirtation with Mary Boleyn was entirely initiated by her. Being a (whatever age) man, it's hard to imagine he'd be above flirting back, especially considering she is a young and attractive girl from a powerful family. The fact that she provides him with lots of information is another reason for him to play along
The inquiries about Jane Seymour I believe is him thinking ahead. I think he understands the nature of the King and that if Anne doesn't give him a son, she won't last long in the throne. Keeping in mind that the "ideal queenship" of that time was a Katherine of Aragon and not an Anne Boleyn, I think it's plausible Cromwell was already starting to think of an alternative to present to the King (a meek and more submissive woman), in case things go south with AB.
As for Anne, it was very weird for me too so I'll assume it's the power going over his head and being a horny old man.
You know me, I'm impulsive. -
KatharineFanatic — 11 years ago(February 08, 2015 05:51 PM)
I assumed this about Jane as well I think Cromwell is a long-term schemer, so him looking for an alternative in case Anne goes south isn't out of the question.
Someone on tumblr posted a section out of the book in which Cromwell fantasizes about touching Anne, as he does in the series so at least it's cannon, although it's still odd. Maybe to show how desirable a woman she was, despite her overall abrasive personality? -
sluggr-2 — 11 years ago(February 10, 2015 08:58 PM)
It is a well established fact that the hot ones are also crazy and Anne IS their queen.
That being said, as the Nncle was raging about Percival at about the 22 min mark of ep 3, did it look like Cromwell broke the 4th wall. I've been watching a lot of "House of Lies" where that is a staple so it almost seemed funny that it might have happened in this tome as well.
I think my percentage of Chimp DNA is higher than others. Cleaver Greene -
CatchyUserID — 10 years ago(April 21, 2015 05:25 PM)
It is a well established fact that the hot ones are also crazy
It's a much better established fact that the kinds of boys and men who say that are the ones who are incapable of getting and keeping a "hot one" - especially a nice, well-adapted hot one.
In my personal experience, men tend to simply be attracted to beautiful women. Of those women, a certain percentage are wild and untamable - they keep a man struggling. Some men prefer the crazy/bad girl, just as some women prefer the bad boys. Dysfunction comes in either sex.
All that said, yes - I think Cromwell has become a bit of a horndog. That, and some artistic license to keep us on our toes with a hint of sexuality. -
chicago85 — 10 years ago(April 22, 2015 01:41 PM)
Mary Boleyn was married to William Carey in 1620. He was a friend of Henry VIII. But he died in 1528 of the sweating sickness leaving her heavily in debt.
She later married William Stafford, a second son who stood not to inherit anything. He was employed by Henry VIII as a soldier. They had a secret marriage in 1534 which was discovered when she became pregnant, Her family disowned her and they were banished from court. She had to pawn her jewels and she had to ask Thomas Cramer for help. Her sister Anne got her a pension of 100 pounds per year.
Her sister Anne and brother were imprisoned in 1534 and executed. Not long afterwards both her parents died too. She lived in obscurity staying out of the way and died in her 40's -
tracy-johnson-1 — 11 years ago(February 13, 2015 03:42 PM)
I agree with you MissBono, this was also my reading of the book. He is also haunted by the memory of Anselma, who was a 'great love' of his life and constantly thinks of his girls and his wife.
He is fascinated by Jane, he doesn't quite know why and thinks she might be of use to him, or that he might be able to do something to improve her situation.
I think the fantasy scene with Anne is in the book (he wonders what it would be like to touch that pale flesh - or something like that). It happens at the point where he has made himself indispensable to both the King and Anne and he is beginning to understand Henry's attraction to Anne (and respect her strength and determination). To start with he doesn't understand why the King wants her, as she was not a 'great' beauty and he thought her skinny and abrasive. He grows to understand her attractions and to respect and even like her to some extent.
He's not interested in Mary Boleyn, beyond the intelligence she can give him but he does like her and enjoys talking to her. He always wishes her well and thinks about the possibility of marrying her, although he doesn't consider it seriously. -
sluggr-2 — 11 years ago(February 14, 2015 10:57 AM)
I'm an "eye man" and to me Mary has the best pair in the series. As for Anne, as Springsteen would put it, "Barroom eyes shine vacancy, to see her you gotta look hard." BTW, I think these are the best lyrics for a song, ever. Double and triple entendres abound. "For You"
I think my percentage of Chimp DNA is higher than others. Cleaver Greene -
thebigmouth — 10 years ago(August 01, 2015 10:30 AM)
I'm an "eye man" and to me Mary has the best pair in the series.
Bingo. This is definitely her appeal for me.
TV:
http://ihatemydvr.blogspot.com
LOST:
http://eyemsick.blogspot.com -
the sphynx — 9 years ago(October 26, 2016 06:21 AM)
He is fascinated by Jane, he doesn't quite know why and thinks she might be of use to him, or that he might be able to do something to improve her situation.
Aside from little signs of favor like sending her the dress patterns, it's clearly implied in the Wolf Hall dinner scene that Cromwell wants to marry Jane Seymour. When someone asks if he'll ever remarry, he doesn't say anything definite, but his eyes turn towards her. The next morning, he sees Jane in the garden from his window and is evidently planning to go outside and propose, until he notices Henry approaching her. Once Jane tells him and her relatives that she's agreed to look kindly on the king, he knows it'll be hopeless to even try.
(And he's not seriously interested in the much younger Mary Boleyn, but he could surely be enticed into a night or two of mischief with her, if she wasn't so busy as to double-book the night she most seriously offered.) -
mlewis78 — 10 years ago(April 18, 2015 02:46 PM)
He is not romantically interested in any of them, except for his deceased wife's sister, who is married (unhappily, apparently). Why does he have to be interested in the women of the court? He works for the king and doesn't want to mess up his life.
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chicago85 — 10 years ago(April 19, 2015 11:34 PM)
Mary Boleyn asked him to marry her so she could get away from the court, her family and her sister. He said if he did, her family would kill her. He comes from a lowly estate and would be totally unacceptable to them. He would marry his sister in law if her husband would die. He is one of those people who wheeze around for years but hang on like the last leaf on the tree.
I don't know everything. Neither does anyone else -
kcummings13 — 10 years ago(April 20, 2015 06:40 PM)
Part of the problem was that Henry had to get a papal dispensation to marry Katherine as she was his brother's widow. When she couldn't produce a son for him, his argument was that their marriage was a sin, which was why he was being punished by God by not having a son, which was the marriage should be annulled.