So Cromwell Loves…
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thebigmouth — 10 years ago(August 01, 2015 10:30 AM)
I'm an "eye man" and to me Mary has the best pair in the series.
Bingo. This is definitely her appeal for me.
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the sphynx — 9 years ago(October 26, 2016 06:21 AM)
He is fascinated by Jane, he doesn't quite know why and thinks she might be of use to him, or that he might be able to do something to improve her situation.
Aside from little signs of favor like sending her the dress patterns, it's clearly implied in the Wolf Hall dinner scene that Cromwell wants to marry Jane Seymour. When someone asks if he'll ever remarry, he doesn't say anything definite, but his eyes turn towards her. The next morning, he sees Jane in the garden from his window and is evidently planning to go outside and propose, until he notices Henry approaching her. Once Jane tells him and her relatives that she's agreed to look kindly on the king, he knows it'll be hopeless to even try.
(And he's not seriously interested in the much younger Mary Boleyn, but he could surely be enticed into a night or two of mischief with her, if she wasn't so busy as to double-book the night she most seriously offered.) -
mlewis78 — 10 years ago(April 18, 2015 02:46 PM)
He is not romantically interested in any of them, except for his deceased wife's sister, who is married (unhappily, apparently). Why does he have to be interested in the women of the court? He works for the king and doesn't want to mess up his life.
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chicago85 — 10 years ago(April 19, 2015 11:34 PM)
Mary Boleyn asked him to marry her so she could get away from the court, her family and her sister. He said if he did, her family would kill her. He comes from a lowly estate and would be totally unacceptable to them. He would marry his sister in law if her husband would die. He is one of those people who wheeze around for years but hang on like the last leaf on the tree.
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kcummings13 — 10 years ago(April 20, 2015 06:40 PM)
Part of the problem was that Henry had to get a papal dispensation to marry Katherine as she was his brother's widow. When she couldn't produce a son for him, his argument was that their marriage was a sin, which was why he was being punished by God by not having a son, which was the marriage should be annulled.
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lhardman_763 — 10 years ago(April 21, 2015 12:49 PM)
Well, by the time Cromwell and his sister-in-law were an item, it was very clear that applying for a papal anything would not have made Cromwell popular with the king. And since Henry had persuaded himself that marriage to his brothers' widow was condemned by God, no matter what dispensation had been give by the Pope, I doubt he would have permitted Cromwell to marry his wife's sister.
Interestingly enough sometime later there was actually a law in England prohibiting remarriages between siblings spouses. In the Victorian era, the future King Edward the VII was interested in getting the law repealded, so that his youngest sister (Beatrice) could marry the widower of his sister Alice. The scheme went nowhere (probably because Beatrice and the widower werent all that enthusiastic) so I dont know if the law was ever repealed. -
OnlyAnOrdinaryGirl — 10 years ago(April 23, 2015 07:05 PM)
Well, by the time Cromwell and his sister-in-law were an item, it was very clear that applying for a papal anything would not have made Cromwell popular with the king. And since Henry had persuaded himself that marriage to his brothers' widow was condemned by God, no matter what dispensation had been give by the Pope, I doubt he would have permitted Cromwell to marry his wife's sister.
It doesn't matter anyway, since marriage isn't the thing that causes consanguinity, it's sex. Cromwell couldn't marry his wife's sister because, by having sex with his wife, he became his wife's sister's brother. Henry also had the same problem with Anne; he had had sex with Mary Boleyn (even though they weren't married), so he couldn't marry Anne because that made Henry Anne's brother. Of course, this only came in handy later
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tracy-johnson-1 — 10 years ago(July 13, 2015 03:39 AM)
Hardly a factual basis for a response but I think the law must have been repealed at some point in the mid-20th century. There's a Catherine Cookson book "The Wingless Bird" that covers this subject matter with a love triangle between 2 brothers and the youngest brother's wife (who it turns out the older brother loves too). I think the facts of when the law was repealed (too late to be much use to the characters during the action covered in the book) were summarized at the end of the book. I think it was the 40s or possibly 50s. The book is set just before, during and a bit after WW1 and by the time the law is repealed to allow the couple to marry they are pensioners and their children are grown and have children of their own.
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Sook-Yongsheng — 10 years ago(April 21, 2015 09:07 AM)
He said if he did, her family would kill her.
Exactly. As people are constantly reminding him, Cromwell is "only" the son of a Putney blacksmith. It's like they tell him that every other minute to keep reminding him of his "inferior" status.
Mary is "used goods" she's had an affair with the king and who knows how many other men. It doesn't matter. She is still the daughter of an important courtier, who was the ambassador to France. More importantly still, she's the niece of the Duke of Norfolk the most important and powerful nobleman in the country. Norfolk would go apeshyte if she married Cromwell; he despises him. Mary's still an aristocrat, in spite of her shady past.
Even though she (and her family as well) are eager to get her hitched up in order to sweep her slutty reputation under the carpet as soon as possible, she can't marry down too low.
She does come across as pretty desperate for a husband. I think that guy Stafford eventually takes her on.
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Sook-Yongsheng — 10 years ago(April 21, 2015 08:50 AM)
I don't know, but it seems to me that Cromwell was very much in love with his wife.
He gets involved with his wife's sister after his wife's death. She apparently reminds him of her dead sister, but it's not purely for that reason as he and his sister-in-law seem always to have really liked each other.
From what I can see, Mary Boleyn is simply throwing herself at Cromwell in desperation. She's trying to get a husband after her reputation has been sullied by sleeping with the king and who knows how many other men? It looked to me like Mary was really coming on to
him
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I think he simply likes Jane Seymour as a person. She is sweet and unassuming, and he sees the qualities in her that other people apparently overlook because she's quiet and modest. He doesn't let the fact that she's quiet and modest get in the way of admiring her for her basic decency and lack of spite very different from all the other courtiers. He appreciates her, and evidently finds the contrast between her and the others quite refreshing.
As for the Anne Boleyn "fantasy" I can't really explain it. He certainly did not like her in real life, even though they were firm pro-Reformer allies at the beginning of her rise to power. I guess it wouldn't stop him from dreaming about the forbidden fruit that the king found so intoxicating. After all, the king didn't shy away from going on about it.
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'71: 8.5
Two Days, One Night: 9 -
maggimae83 — 10 years ago(April 26, 2015 10:06 AM)
It may be that Cromwell was truly fond of Jane Grey, but it must also be noted that she belongs to a powerful family. So Thomas Cromwell may just be thinking who he wants as allies in the future.
maggimae83 -
tonygumbrell — 10 years ago(July 23, 2015 09:55 PM)
A main theme in Stanley Kubrick's work is the compounding of sex and power and the corruption by and of both that leads to catastrophe or failure. Political or military power is heady stuff and stupefyingly corrupting. I recognized this in the military, where the post I was stationed at was sometimes referred to as "Peyton Place" because there was so much hanky-panky going on. At a local talk given by a popular and populist state governor, some women showed up dressed to the 'nines' and flaunted provocative displays of their sexuality. Said governor later abandoned a run for a 2nd term after paying off a woman who threatened a sexual harassment suit. People working, even as peripheral staff, near seats of power and authority can get caught up in the atmosphere of power and become stimulated or exited. That one good reason why I like Wolf Hall so much. The makers, writers et al. do a super job of depicting that stimulation, excitement, and daring that the mere proximity to highly concentrated power induces.