Where is the joy in a life under communism?
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Deluded Juice — 4 years ago(August 30, 2021 04:25 PM)
Please note, this is the last time I'll respond to you.
Good.
Then I can get the last word in.
Fuck you.
All you here to do is to argue and bullshit with your trolling ways while you try to fool us by pretending to be this old geezer.
There is not one truthful or sincere thing at all about you.
Just an asshole.
Again, **** you. -
MagneticMonopole — 4 years ago(August 30, 2021 10:19 AM)
Communism as envisioned by Marx essentially means that all workplaces are run under democratic principles rather than the authoritarian principles you have under capitalism.
Maybe it means that every important decision your company or company's division makes requires a meeting followed by a vote. Or maybe it just means you get to vote on whether your manager keeps her job once a year. But it definitely means the profits from your work are shared at some level rather than sucked up by a parasitic owner.
Sounds great to me, though I'd hardly apply the word "joy" to it. -
Thomas Sowell — 4 years ago(August 30, 2021 11:33 AM)
Thanks, that's a very reasonable response. I can see the appeal at the surface level, and I actually like the sound of that, but how does it work practically?
How do you even start a company like that?
Where's the motivation to innovate? If they'd managed to get their company off the ground in the first place, would an Elon Musk character, for example, be pushing so hard to develop the kinds of technologies that might one day take us all to the stars, if they had to have a vote and share all the profits? Aren't there companies like that already, who've gone public? How do we make sure the right voices rise above the noise? Democracy struggles to find a sensible consensus; it's rule by the lowest common denominator.
And after that, what happens when one company does so much better than another, and their profits skyrocket, while the other company's workers are poor? Won't that lead to the kind of economic disparity the system is trying to address? Aren't we just then seeing the same problems that people claim are the fault of capitalism? -
Thomas Sowell — 4 years ago(August 30, 2021 05:27 PM)
Or you steal an existing one and restructure it.
Where would the capital come from? Let's say, somehow, you had enough people to contribute the funds for a car plant - what about when people want to leave, or change jobs? What about new employees? Surely everyone gets a share dependent on their own, individual contribution?
Isn't that simply what capitalism already is? -
MagneticMonopole — 4 years ago(August 30, 2021 09:44 PM)
How do you even start a company like that?
Workers have collectively purchased privately owned companies and owners have voluntarily ceded ownership and control.
To start a large worker owned and run company from the ground up is trickier because it requires a special type of loan structure from banks, a structure which is not available in the USA (on purpose, by the way). That's why the largest such companies are in Europe.
Bottom line is, such companies exist and have thrived for decades, so we know for a fact that this model works.
Where's the motivation to innovate?
The same as it always has been—the pure delight of engaging in human creativity and the knowledge that one’s self and one’s coworkers will benefit from it, if successful. Not exactly rocket science.
If they'd managed to get their company off the ground in the first place, would an Elon Musk character, for example, be pushing so hard to develop the kinds of technologies that might one day take us all to the stars, if they had to have a vote and share all the profits?
First, in a just and civilized society, a ridiculous monster like Elon Musk would be impossible.
Second, Elon Musk has done almost nothing of substance himself. He hires actual smart people to work on projects for him. There is no reason to think that teams of smart scientists and technicians would suddenly stop thinking of cool ideas once they were put in the drivers' seat and now shared fairly in the profits from those ideas. Quite the opposite, actually.
Aren't there companies like that already, who've gone public?
Yes, the largest one being in Spain/Portugal where the legal and financial structures are more supportive. (Actually, I don't know if they are "public" in the sense that anyone can buy stocks, but the workers own the company and split the profits.)
How do we make sure the right voices rise above the noise? Democracy struggles to find a sensible consensus; it's rule by the lowest common denominator.
The only “we” that actually matters here are the workers owning and controlling the company in question. If they have a lot of idiots and/or bad internal structures, they will likely fail.
Worker ownership and control guarantees that democracy is extended to the workplace, not that a business will or must succeed.
And after that, what happens when one company does so much better than another, and their profits skyrocket, while the other company's workers are poor?
See my last line.
Aren't we just then seeing the same problems that people claim are the fault of capitalism?
If overnight every company in the country became worker owned and controlled and no other changes were made to our legal and economic structures, I imagine all kinds of problems caused by capitalism would persist. For instance, I see no reason why workers in control of a company wouldn't pollute the environment and rip off consumers if there was no accountability to the community.
Worker ownership and control just solves one set of problems. It is not a magical solution to everything. -
Thomas Sowell — 4 years ago(August 31, 2021 05:33 PM)
Thanks again for another great response.
I think, given our clear differences in political ideology, we'd struggle to find agreement over much of this, so I'm reluctant to respond point by point.
I think our differences can be summed up rather neatly if I address this particular remark.
Worker ownership and control just solves one set of problems.
I think this is a really good point. Capitalism solves another set of problems. What we all need to be looking for, instead of bickering, blaming, and cancelling each other, is trying to find the space where these different views can meet on common ground. We all need to accept that nobody is going to be able to live in a world that's perfect for them. We all have to accept that we must compromise.
Today, I think we're all guilty of making perfect the enemy of the good.
Schrodinger's Cat walks into a bar, and doesn't. 