after Donald Trump, that is?
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 02:57 AM)
No, the hell it isn't. You just make light of the oppression of gay and bisexual people.
The young man was told that his sexuality and his love life was a bad "habit", a psychiatric problem which needed to be "solved".
If you had been a young queer lad as I was once, you would not make light of this. MLK was a homophobe. But I don't blame him. He was a good man who looked for solutions to this queer "problem" in the context of the homophobic world in which he lived.
And MLK's homophobia does not cancel out all the good he did by establishing equality in the law which benefits racial and sexual minorities to this day.
It's the same with Lincoln. MLK was a homophobe. Lincoln was a racist. But IDGAF. They were great men who improved people's lives and propelled humanity forward.
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 03:15 AM)
The same way I discount MLK's homophobia. That's like calling Plato or Buddha idiots because they didn't know about evolution. People are a product of their time.
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β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 03:27 AM)This is a conversation about whether Presidents are great. Youβre bringing non Presidents into it like there isnβt a higher standard for holding the highest office and leading the country. Cβmon dude.
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 03:43 AM)
But the subject became bigotry and whether or not good people can be a product of their times. Your objection to Lincoln was his racism against blacks. As President he ignored his racism and did what was ethically right. That's a universal concept which applies to Presidents and peasants alike.
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β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 04:12 AM)Platonic_Caveman said...
But the subject became bigotry and whether or not good people can be a product of their times. Your objection to Lincoln was his racism against blacks. As President he ignored his racism and did what was ethically right. That's a universal concept which applies to Presidents and peasants alike.
What did he do after he emancipated them? You realize they were terrorized and treated like garbage AFTER they were βfreed?β The 13th amendment wasnβt a magic panacea for all Black issues in America. They are still fighting for equality in 2020 as we sit here celebrating βIndependenceβ day.
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 04:37 AM)
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said...
What did he do after he emancipated them? You realize they were terrorized and treated like garbage AFTER they were βfreed?β The 13th amendment wasnβt a magic panacea for all Black issues in America. They are still fighting for equality in 2020 as we sit here celebrating βIndependenceβ day.
Liberation is a process. It doesn't happen all at once. Lincoln did his part. History will remember him as a liberator.
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β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 10:03 PM)And the years that followed werenβt that much better for emancipated slaves. Unless you think years of subjugation and persecution post- emancipation was the endgame. A great President would have done everything in his power to see the people he sought to free made equal in society shortly after the war. He didnβt care as long as the Union was preserved.
By Lincolnβs own admission if he could have ended the war and saved the union WITHOUT freeing the slaves he would have. How can you exalt someone for freeing slaves whose freedom he Admitted he didnβt value? You guys learn all your history from American textbooks that exclude these details and nuances, thatβs why.
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Jared Kushner β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 10:12 PM)
Lol. The first point is unfair. The poor guy went to the show one evening and was killed! I suspect that he would have managed Reconstruction much better than his successors.
RE the second point- he did learn and grow during his Presidency. You can't hold his earlier thinking against him. -
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β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 10:14 PM)Read his letter to Horace Greeley from 1862. There he outlines how he really feels about slavery. Abolition was never high on his priority list.
And equality for any group of people extends far beyond a law that prevents their ownership.
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phantomparticle β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 07:59 PM)
Truman won't make it because he dropped the Bomb. It doesn't matter to the uneducated college snowflakes that it ended WWII. Hell, they probably believe the U.S. started the whole thing in the first place out of pure racism toward the Japanese.
Eisenhower, possibly. Then again, just by being a general in the U.S. military would disqualify him among the socialist/communist wing of the Democrat Party.
Grant won the Civil War. Tell that to the idiots who want to tear down his statue, or have they already done that (I can't keep these things straight anymore).
Wilson? No. A genuine racist.
Coolidge? The man never spoke more than four words at a time and I don't seen anyone today breaking that record to nominate him.
Harding? If you disregard that episode in the "closet" and the kid who made things uncomfortable for him about nine months later.
Hoover. Nah. The Great Depression took care of him.
You can disqualify every president from Madison to Buchanan and from Grant to McKinley since they have been dropped from all the history courses and no one knows they were even alive.
Johnson was impeached (Andy, not Lyndon, for the ignorant among us).
Taft? Who the hell was he?
Maybe we should just let Mt. Rushmore alone and if someone wants to carve another monument somewhere else, more power to them. By the time it is finished we'll all be dead and won't give a damn who is on it.
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phantomparticle β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 09:32 PM)
Others had already mentioned him, so I thought I would cover the rest of the field.
However, his incarceration of Japanese citizens in concentration camps should automatically rule him out. After all, if Washington and Jefferson are going to be judged entirely on the one fact that they owned slaves, then it is fair that FDR be judged entirely on the single fact that he imprisoned innocent Americans.
I realize, of course, that "fair" only means what the left wants it to mean and that everyone in agreement with liberalism is automatically exonerated.
In the real world: What's good for the gooseβ¦.
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 09:39 PM)
If you ruled out every President because he made some controversial move, you'd be left with Coolidge, Harrison and other do-nothing fools.
I don't even entertain the idea that slavery disqualifies Washington and Jefferson. That's an extremist position which won't hold up over time.
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