Like Adam and Eve?
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filmflaneur — 1 year ago(December 11, 2024 12:48 PM)
If God is perfect in all things, then He would be perfect at lying. The most perfect lie is one which is not suspected. So how do you know that the alleged deity is not,
de facto
an unsuspected deceiver in all it does?
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(December 12, 2024 11:28 AM)
My point remains that, if God is perfect in all things, then He would be perfect at lying. And the most perfect lie is one which is not suspected.
But if one chooses to reject the above logic, then er, have you not read the Bible? Your alleged deity is not always associated with truth eg:
1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
Jeremiah 4:10
Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.
Jeremiah 20:7
O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.
Ezekiel 14:9
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie..
My favourite is
Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (The Hebrew word yohm is used for day in the bible, meaning a 24 hour day, as in the Earth created in 6 days.)
Adam ate of the forbidden fruit but died over 900 years later. It seems that Adam lived a full life, making of God's curse a lie.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
Norwayzn_2 — 1 year ago(December 24, 2024 11:36 AM)
My point remains that, if God is perfect in all things, then He would be perfect at lying. And the most perfect lie is one which is not suspected.
Sorry to defuse your assertion which you think is supported by the scripture verses you posted, but……..
God is not a liar. Lying is a sin and He doesn't sin.
Because He's perfect. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(December 24, 2024 02:08 PM)
which you think is supported by the scripture verses you posted, Lying is a sin and He doesn't sin.
I see; so none of those verses I quoted refer to deceit or lying after all in any normal sense to any objective reader? LOL
Because He's perfect
As already noted, the most perfect liar would be one entirely above suspicion.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(December 25, 2024 12:36 PM)
Why don't you? Or, or much quicker, pick any Christian apologists site where such things are usually explained away by special pleading or creative exegesis and see how things can be explained away.
In the meantime, look at the verses again, this time with intellectual honesty, and see why any reasonable, objective reader would not come to the exact same conclusion I have.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
Norwayzn_2 — 1 year ago(January 12, 2025 11:42 AM)
Why don't you?
I am the teacher here and you are the student. Your assignment is clear. Report back when you have completed it.
see why any reasonable, objective reader would not come to the exact same conclusion I have
@ you declaring yourself to be reasonable and objective on this subject. That's a shamefully vast leap.
Chop chop. The holidays are over and you've had an adequate break. And remember; show your work. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(January 12, 2025 09:10 PM)
I am the teacher here and you are the student
…
Patronising noted.
So then: none of those verses I quoted refer to deceit or lying after all? You didn't say, oh teacher mine. What would a reasonable and objective reader say?
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
Norwayzn_2 — 1 year ago(January 13, 2025 08:07 AM)
Your assignment:
Present those verses to a Biblical scholar who is familiar with the original Hebrew and Greek texts and ask if they mean what you think they mean.
You are free to reveal that you do not have confidence that your ideas will stand up to scholarly scrutiny by bowing out now. This will, of course, result in an "F" – otherwise known as utter failure.
If you choose to follow this path, you will feel a certain amount of self-loathing. Please try to not let it overtake you. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(January 13, 2025 12:30 PM)
Been there, done that. All I find is special pleading and creative exegesis. That is, they accept the fact of the matter, as the texts are clear, but then try and explain it away.
Either they totally ignore the inconvenient truth
https://www.gotquestions.org/can-God-lie.html
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/why-god-can-t-lie-or-sin
or explain it away as part of the plan
"But God does ordain that lying happen as part of his judgment "
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/does-god-lie
Or by creative exegesis
https://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/library/bqa/id/257/did-god-lie-adam-eve-genesis-217.htm
I have never seen much else by way of a riposte. Sorry about that
You still haven't said why any objective and reasonable person, after reading the verses I gave would not associated your god with lying and deceit, either directly or authorising it. Is there problem.
Please try to not let it overtake you
Patronising, noted; again.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
Norwayzn_2 — 1 year ago(January 14, 2025 09:25 AM)
I have no way of knowing whether you are being completely honest with me re: talking with biblical scholars about the inherent meaning in the original Greek and Hebrew texts, but I know I can trust God. And I know He has my best interests "at heart" because He has changed my life for the better, and I know hundreds of people whom He has also changed completely. Not to perfection – but decidedly better and getting better continuously.
I notice you use a lower case "g" when denoting God. It's been my experience that people who do that are hostile to the very concept of God's existence and very dismissive of Scripture itself. It has also been my experience that those people take joy in toying with believers in discussions like this.
I'm not interested in continuing this discussion if that describes you. If, however, you are searching – you are where I was many years ago and if you are sincerely searching, we can talk about it. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(January 14, 2025 06:53 PM)
Norwayzn_2 said...
I have no way of knowing whether you are being completely honest with me re: talking with biblical scholars about the inherent meaning in the original Greek and Hebrew texts, but I know I can trust God. And I know He has my best interests "at heart" because He has changed my life for the better, and I know hundreds of people whom He has also changed completely. Not to perfection – but decidedly better and getting better continuously.
I notice you use a lower case "g" when denoting God. It's been my experience that people who do that are hostile to the very concept of God's existence and very dismissive of Scripture itself. It has also been my experience that those people take joy in toying with believers in discussions like this.
I'm not interested in continuing this discussion if that describes you. If, however, you are searching – you are where I was many years ago and if you are sincerely searching, we can talk about it.
expand
I have no way of knowing whether you are being completely honest with me re: talking with biblical scholars about the inherent meaning in the original Greek and Hebrew texts
Whether you do or not, the links alone I provide exemplify the tactics from apologists : special pleading, ignoring the specific passages in favour of generalisms, and recourse to Command Theory.
but I know I can trust God.
If he uses or authorises deceit for His own ends, and never changes, that may be reckless. If God is perfect in all things then he would be the perfect deceiver, i.e. one which is never suspected.
I know He has my best interests "at heart" because He has changed my life for the better, and I know hundreds of people whom He has also changed completely.
There is no indication that fortunate or positive things in life would not happen anyway, while the power and advantages of positive thinking is not restricted to the religious.
I notice you use a lower case "g" when denoting God. It's been my experience that people who do that are hostile to the very concept of God's existence and very dismissive of Scripture itself.
Not me on this present exchange, that I can see. It is however good English to use 'god' when talking of a deity in general and 'God' when talking specifically about the one deliberate supernatural you apparently prefer.
It has also been my experience that those people take joy in toying with believers in discussions like this.
If your deity is with you and your faith is strong I am sure you have little to worry about. Right? If you do not wish to engage with the sceptical then do not go on a religious message board.
I'm not interested in continuing this discussion if that describes you. If, however, you are searching
This seems to me that you are only happy to talk to those who do not challenge your views - which is a shame, but not untypical.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
Norwayzn_2 — 1 year ago(January 15, 2025 10:49 AM)
filmflaneur said...
I have no way of knowing whether you are being completely honest with me re: talking with biblical scholars about the inherent meaning in the original Greek and Hebrew texts
Whether you do or not, the links alone I provide exemplify the tactics from apologists : special pleading, ignoring the specific passages in favour of generalisms, and recourse to Command Theory.
but I know I can trust God.
If he uses or authorises deceit for His own ends, and never changes, that may be reckless. If God is perfect in all things then he would be the perfect deceiver, i.e. one which is never suspected.
I know He has my best interests "at heart" because He has changed my life for the better, and I know hundreds of people whom He has also changed completely.
There is no indication that fortunate or positive things in life would not happen anyway, while the power and advantages of positive thinking is not restricted to the religious.
I notice you use a lower case "g" when denoting God. It's been my experience that people who do that are hostile to the very concept of God's existence and very dismissive of Scripture itself.
Not me on this present exchange, that I can see. It is however good English to use 'god' when talking of a deity in general and 'God' when talking specifically about the one deliberate supernatural you apparently prefer.
It has also been my experience that those people take joy in toying with believers in discussions like this.
If your deity is with you and your faith is strong I am sure you have little to worry about. Right? If you do not wish to engage with the sceptical then do not go on a religious message board.
I'm not interested in continuing this discussion if that describes you. If, however, you are searching
This seems to me that you are only happy to talk to those who do not challenge your views - which is a shame, but not untypical.
expand
If your deity is with you and your faith is strong I am sure you have little to worry about. Right? If you do not wish to engage with the sceptical then do not go on a religious message board.
My faith is very strong and you have seemingly chosen to reply with the typical derisive snarkiness that is characteristic of a non-believer who finds joy in toying with people of faith.
This seems to me that you are only happy to talk to those who do not challenge your views - which is a shame, but not untypical.
You've ignored the fact that I said:
If, however, you are searching – you are where I was many years ago and if you are sincerely searching, we can talk about it.
You're not sincerely searching. You and I both know what you're doing. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(January 15, 2025 12:23 PM)
Norwayzn_2 said...
If your deity is with you and your faith is strong I am sure you have little to worry about. Right? If you do not wish to engage with the sceptical then do not go on a religious message board.
My faith is very strong and you have seemingly chosen to reply with the typical derisive snarkiness that is characteristic of a non-believer who finds joy in toying with people of faith.
This seems to me that you are only happy to talk to those who do not challenge your views - which is a shame, but not untypical.
You've ignored the fact that I said:
If, however, you are searching – you are where I was many years ago and if you are sincerely searching, we can talk about it.
You're not sincerely searching. You and I both know what you're doing.
expand
My faith is very strong
Then it will survive any buffeting it gets here.
You're not sincerely searching. You and I both know what you're doing.
Don't tell me what I know.
It is significant that now you are attacking me, more than what I say.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
Aph the cat whisperer — 1 year ago(December 03, 2024 10:22 PM)
He probably creates things to remind humanity to appreciate what they have and the time they have. And the people who are born deformed are the true gift of the world because they see through and past everyone's bullshit and are pure at heart and truly appreciate everything for what it is.