' formerly known as Saoradh

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Isapop — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:04 PM)

I'm not sure how logical it is to say that the created is on equal footing with its creator in terms of those requirements.
Logical fallacy.
You're positing something that doesn't need a creator to squirm out of the original premise that EVERYTHING must have a creator.

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Miscella — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:07 PM)

the original premise that EVERYTHING must have a creator.
That isn't the premise of the argument.

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Isapop — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:11 PM)

Of course it is.

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Miscella — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:13 PM)

Are you new here? See the thread entitled "The First Cause Argument."

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Isapop — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:45 PM)

This is about your illogical response to rowan's comment on THIS thread:
if the universe requires a creator then so does a god.

I'm not sure how logical it is to say that the created is on equal footing with its creator in terms of those requirements.

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Miscella — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 02:05 PM)

I don't remember any premise in THIS thread that has anything to do with my response to rowan's comment, let alone an
original
one that states EVERYTHING must have a creator. In any case, anything that is created requires a creator, for nothing can create itself.

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rowan_morrison — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:06 PM)

Why do you think that?
p u r p l e
o r a n g e

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Miscella — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:12 PM)

Why do you think that?
If god is the creator, and the universe is the created, then
"If the creator requires no creator then nor does the created, and if the created requires a creator then so does the creator."
Still logical? Because I'm having trouble seeing the logic of asserting that something which is created doesn't require a creator. After all, nothing can create itself.
In any case, asking who or what created God is like asking what came before the first or what comes after the last.

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rowan_morrison — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:16 PM)

If "nothing can create itself", how did any gods come into existence?
p u r p l e
o r a n g e

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Miscella — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:19 PM)

If it
came into existence
, it isn't "God". Just like if there was anything before it, it isn't the first, or if there is anything after it, it isn't the last.

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rowan_morrison — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:21 PM)

How do you know your god did not "come into existence"?
p u r p l e
o r a n g e

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Miscella — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:38 PM)

First of all, I have never referred to God as "my god", so neither should you. Secondly, if something else brought it into existence, it isn't "God".

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rowan_morrison — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:43 PM)

Then the universe itself could be a god by your logic. Are you fine with that?
p u r p l e
o r a n g e

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Miscella — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 02:01 PM)

In the context of the First Cause argument in and of itself, the universe could be the "first cause" if it is indeed ultimately uncaused. But for it to be "God", it would need to be more than simply the 'first cause.' But we're talking about the question of who or what created God. Let's assume for the sake of
this
discussion that the universe itself is uncaused
Who or what caused the universe?
See how that works? Or rather, see how that
doesn't
work? For if it was caused, it isn't the "universe".

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rowan_morrison — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 02:07 PM)

If you "assume that the universe itself is uncaused"
then the answer to the question:
"Who or what caused the universe?"
is nothing.
Ditto any gods you can imagine.
Good job, you just demonstrated that the universe could be a god.
p u r p l e
o r a n g e

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Miscella — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 02:12 PM)

If you "assume that the universe itself is uncaused"
then the answer to the question:
"Who or what caused the universe?"
is nothing.
Don't be silly. Nothing can't do anything.
Good job, you just demonstrated that the universe could be a god.
You missed something:
"for it to be "God", it would need to be more than simply the 'first cause.'"

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rowan_morrison — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 02:34 PM)

I gave you enough rope, and you hung yourself with it. I've nothing further to add.
p u r p l e
o r a n g e

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Miscella — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 02:37 PM)

Wow. Well ok then. You're not as bright as I thought you were. My bad.

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filmflaneur — 9 years ago(January 10, 2017 03:28 AM)

You missed something:
"for it to be "God", it would need to be more than simply the 'first cause.'"
So no true god is simply the first cause? Does it need a back story, too? Or is it that it has to be deliberate?
I'm well aware that railing does no good
kurt2000

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Miscella — 9 years ago(January 10, 2017 03:29 PM)

So no true god is simply the first cause? Does it need a back story, too? Or is it that it has to be deliberate?
It has to be something more than simply the 'first cause'. But you knew that already, didn't you? Given our discussions about this in the past, I'd say yes, I think you did.