Why didn't Michael tell someone she couldn't have written the report?
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adrossan — 12 years ago(February 03, 2014 04:39 AM)
Lyndhen, my question was; how do you defend locking 300 people in a barn, setting fire to it, and not opening the doors but allow them to burn to death, on a legal basis ? How can there be NO intent ?
airborne60 has said, it may have been that Hannah said an air raid started the fire.
Unfortunately,I either didn't hear that part, or it was an error. That still does not relieve, on a legal basis, the charge of murder: the 300 were left to burn while either the doors could have been opened, or the fire extinguished. They owed a duty of car to the prisoners, and the harm outweighed the penalties applicable to the 300. That is why they had a positive duty to do something to assist the prisoners, unlike the "Unknown Good Samaritan", which does not have a positive duty to perform a saving act.
In other words, a passerby could have continued to pass, but the guards had a legal duty to protect the prisoners from harm. Letting the barn burn with 300 inside is specific intent, in my book, to kill the occupants.
We don't know if they (KZ guards) were armed, presumably so, therefore the doors could have been opened and any attempt to escape dealt with up to and including shooting. We also don't know (in the film) exactly where the incident took place, whether escape was physically possible, and what the prisoners were charged or convicted of.
The dilemma for most serving Germans from that time, is if they disobeyed an order, they in turn would be shot, &/or their family imprisoned or interned in a concentration camp.
German law was, long before WW2, a written and very rigid set of rules, what tyou can do and also what you can't do is both written down, whereas British, Australian and
founding
American law is all based on English common law, which is inferred rather than specified like German law.
Of course, US law has gone a step further with a Bill of Rights, whereas most English common law countries still rely on inferred and not specific written Rights.
As Hanna was a perpetrator at the time, I see no relevance in the German term for difficulty with past generations - she was an older woman teaching him about sex.
As a law student Michael would have no capacity to speak to the court, he could perhaps urge her to speak out, or informed her defence of his knowledge, but then the story would have been spoiled. -
Lyndhen — 12 years ago(February 03, 2014 08:05 AM)
Absolutely, it makes no difference that an RAF bomb started the fire - the guards had legal obligation to ensure the prisoners well being. (no orders to the contrary).
Incidentally, it's generally a (popular) misconception that guards or other perpetrators acted under threat of death or imprisonment (for them or their families).
As to German law. I think Schlinke (the writer and a German lawyer) has constructed the fictional case thus - the order giver (report writer) had intent to murder - she was faced with a problem and decided to solve that problem by killing the prisoners. Those who followed the order did not have intent to murder - they only had intent to follow the order given and thus are guilty of aiding and abetting murder. (that's a rough explanation).
Likewise, those making selections had the intent of meeting ordered quotas - they were merely tools of a higher (deciding) authority and it cannot be proved that they intended to murder through their actions. Interestingly, Hanna damns herself with her own candid explanations. She is seen by the court not as a tool (or thoughtless automaton) but as someone who sees the bigger picture and therefore as someone who is capable of giving orders. This is why the other defendants (the five wise monkeys) jump to accuse her.
The above is more or less in line with the issues discussed in German law at the time of the trials.
I agree that Michael would have no capacity to speak to the court (and this is possibly why he is shown 'almost-but-not-meeting' Hanna during the trial.) But Hanna was much more to Michael than an older woman teaching him about sex. We might need to suspend disbelief but the story does try very (very) hard to show that he loved her - It is a story which reflects the post war generation's difficulty with dealing with their criminal parents, who, as parents they also had to love. Schlinke just adds spice by turning it into a love story. -
ciprianl — 11 years ago(May 28, 2014 02:27 PM)
In the story of this movie, the Nazis did not set fire to the church. The allied incendiary bombs did that. Now, why exactly were incendiary bombs used against a civilian target is another question (a church isn't usually considered as a military target).
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catbookss — 11 years ago(October 19, 2014 07:54 PM)
From Hanna's own testimony, all six of them decided as a group to not unlock the door. Hanna was very truthful in her answers bizarrely so and there's no reason to not believe her. So, who actually wrote up the report didn't matter; they were all equally guilty.
The difference would have been that all six of them would have served life sentences. -
catbookss — 11 years ago(November 06, 2014 08:16 AM)
They decided as a group in both instances; there was no leader amongst the guards.
With the "selections," they decided as a group to each choose 10 people. With the fire in the church, they agreed to not unlock the doors because the 6 of them didn't think they could contain 300 panicked prisoners they were in charge of. -
lornamd-1 — 12 years ago(March 04, 2014 11:06 AM)
I think Michael should have said something but not so Hanna got less time in prison. She helped kill innocent people she should have gotten more than a few years in jail but those women should not have gotten let off for their crimes which is why he should have let the truth be known.
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jajceboy — 11 years ago(April 23, 2014 02:51 PM)
I just figured it was due to Michael feeling guilty for being with a SS-guard and being associated with a murderer. Not so much Hannah's dignity as his own shame.
So he therefore chose to keep it a secret. -
ljackson-53207 — 10 years ago(September 25, 2015 12:26 PM)
I just saw this movie so sorry for the late reply. I've skimmed most of the intricate responses here and I have my own opinion. I think that there is no real answer as to why Michael did not say she was illiterate, only that he knew. I further believe the writer wants us to know this as a possible parallel to the common theory that the SS knew and didn't tell..that the German people knew and didnt tell..that the whole world knew and didnt tell. These are the consequences of when you know and you dont tell.any ideas?
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yunamungil — 10 years ago(March 27, 2016 05:36 AM)
I think, with the sentence of Michael's professor saying "what is not important is utterly unimportant. The difference is how we act on it", it can tell the reasoning of Michael, at least. He didnt think by speaking up for Hannah is important. He eventually checked it as unimportant to stand up for Hannah. The reason can be his still-heartbroken heart (he even can handle himself not replying to Hannah's letter), or maybe not wanting Hannah feel (more) humiliated in court due to his knowledge about Hannah, or maybe letting Hannah a chance to choose for her life. The reasons could be multiple that impacted on his emotion and action.
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Lyndhen — 10 years ago(March 27, 2016 11:27 PM)
I think the professor says - what you
feel
is not important - but what you
do
is important.
It was important for Michael to do something and help Hanna because he knew she was innocent of writing the report. However, what was more important for him was how he felt - he was ashamed of his relationship with her. Therefore he could not do the right thing and help her.
Some kind of parallel with the Nazi period was made - that Michael is acting as ignorantly as the war generation. Or as badly as Hanna. She murdered people because of her shame of illiteracy - he condemns Hanna to life in prison because of his shame of a relationship with her. -
yunamungil — 9 years ago(April 09, 2016 05:18 AM)
Yeah, that's right. Thanks for correcting me :). I am kinda forgetful about the scene, but I liked this film. So I'm always back to comment it.
Yeah maybe he was ashamed as we could see in the film he despised of knowing Hanna when his friend told everyone that Michael was always looking to 'that woman". And his friend said, our parents knew, our teacher knew, everyone knew about many existence of camps but many ignored it, so apparently it's a big shameful history in society, including to Michael.
However, I wondered hy Michael still cared fo Hanna in prison if he was really ashamed of Hannah? Did he just feel bad for not standing up for her, or did he just feel bad about Hannah's life, or actually he still kept his affinity to Hannah? Do you think Michael still loved Hanna until the end? I just can't understand some of his doings.