Cleopatra wasn't black.
-
eden_echo — 21 years ago(January 17, 2005 02:43 PM)
Cleopatra was of Greek blood and descent, I have no idea how she would come to be the last Queen of Egypt instead of Greece (if they had royalty, I think).
From Yahoo Encyclopedia:
Cleopatra
(klēpătr, pā, p) , 69 30 , queen of Egypt, one of the great romantic heroines of all time. Her name was widely used in the Ptolemaic family; there were many earlier Cleopatras. The daughter of Ptolemy XI, she was married at the age of 17 (as was the family custom) to her younger brother Ptolemy XII. The force and character of the royal pair was, however, concentrated in the alluring (though apparently not beautiful) and ambitious queen. She led a revolt against her brother, and, obtaining the aid of Julius Caesar, she won the kingdom, although it remained a vassal of Rome. Her young brother-husband was accidentally drowned in the Nile. She then married her still younger brother Ptolemy XIII, but she was the mistress of Caesar and followed him to Rome; there she bore a son, Caesarion (later Ptolemy XIV), who was said to be his. Returning to Egypt after the murder of Caesar and the battle of Philippi, she was visited (42 ) by Marc Antony, who had come to demand an account of her actions. He fell hopelessly in love with her, and Cleopatra, conscious of her royalty and even her claims to divinity as the pharaoh's daughter, seems to have hoped to use Antony to reestablish the real power of the Egyptian throne. They were married in 36 Most of the Romans feared and hated Cleopatra, and Octavian (later Augustus) undertook to destroy the two lovers. Antony and Cleopatra were defeated off Actium in 31 , and, returning to Alexandria, they tried to defend themselves in Egypt. When they failed, Antony committed suicide by falling on his sword. Cleopatra, faced by the cold and unmoved Octavian, also killed herself. Her schemes failed, but her ambition, capability, and remarkable charm have left a great impression on history. Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra, based on Plutarch, describes the tragic end of the queen's career, and Dryden's All for Love: or, The World Well Lost is a reworking of Shakespeare. Caesar and Cleopatra, the comedy by G. B. Shaw, deals with the early years of her story.
ANIMAL LOVERS UNITE -
trina31b — 21 years ago(February 11, 2005 08:58 AM)
Actually, people in Egypt are Mid-Eastern. But it is true that Cleopatra was of Macedonian-Greek descent.
Did you know that Cleopatra didn't actually kill herself? Octavian had her murdered and since he was the man with absolute power, he could change the story around of how Cleopatra was actually killed. New historical facts today say so that she did NOT commit suicide.
"Ignore the ignorance." -
webmaster-1348 — 21 years ago(February 15, 2005 10:49 PM)
Cleopatra was not a Black women. She was a Greek born in Egypt. It's a common misconception since she was born in Egypt.
Trina said: <<< Actually, people in Egypt are Mid-Eastern>>>
The Ancient Egyptians were Black Africans, and not 'Middle Easterns', also know as Arabs. The Arabs along with Macedonians and Persians, ect invaded Egypt. None of those people are indigenous to Egypt. Arabs are NOT aboriginal people of Egypt.
Foton-You are NOT a decendent of Ancient Egyptians. And, yes, Egyptians were Black, much like the whole continent of Africa. I recommend you engage in some research beyond modern 'history'.
Jared-
We DO know who the ancient Egyptians were. They were Black. No amount of supremacy, whether its from Whites or Arabs or Blacks, will deter historical accuracy. -
realmadrid2727 — 20 years ago(January 08, 2006 12:12 PM)
webmaster-1348 said:
Foton-You are NOT a decendent of Ancient Egyptians. And, yes, Egyptians were Black, much like the whole continent of Africa. I recommend you engage in some research beyond modern 'history'.
Egyptians were not "black, much like the whole continent of Africa." They're like the rest of other native northern Africans before Arab influence. Take a look at the Berbers of Morocco, many of them to this day are still unmixed so they retain their look from thousands of years ago. That's a good picture of what the Egyptians looked like in the past. Mediterranean (a tad darker than Euro-mediterranean) skin, fine features, and fairly straight hair. It's obviously pointed out by geographical distribution. Africans in the very center of Africa are very dark, and as you start moving up north they get progressively lighter and lighter and their features thin out. It goes this way all the way until you get to northern Europeans which are very white. It's not just "all Africa = black, all Europe = white." There's quite a bit of middle ground there, regardless of what race you want to lump who into. -
ContinentalOp — 10 years ago(July 19, 2015 10:06 AM)
It's not just "all Africa = black, all Europe = white." There's quite a bit of middle ground there, regardless of what race you want to lump who into.
Indeed. Races, especially colour-coded ones, are nonsense anyway.
And I am not sure what this thread has to do with this mini-series anyway, the actress playing Cleopatra is not African, she is Hispanic of very clear Native American and Spanish mixture, and I believe she is Hungarian and German also.
Formerly KingAngantyr -
Mithrandir-Olorin33 — 10 years ago(January 09, 2016 06:18 PM)
Are any modern Greeks natural Red Heads? Modern Maceodnians are mostly descended from later Slavic migrations. The Ancient Macedonians were more akin to the Irish and Scottish then anyone in the Aegen.
"I knew it, I'm surrounded by @$$Holes" -
ContinentalOp — 9 years ago(July 10, 2016 04:59 PM)
Descendants of Macedonians live in the Greek state of Macedonia. The Macedonians were as Greek as modern day Spartans and were actually Dorians, like the Spartans. Modetn day Greeks are the same people as ancient Greeks so why wouldn't they have red hair today? And Macedonians are no more related to Scots (who are a mix of various ethnic groups such as Gaels and Inglis, as it is more a national denonym) than any Greeks.
This damned jury's getting me. If I don't get away soon I'll be going blood-simply like the natives. -
ContinentalOp — 9 years ago(August 15, 2016 05:17 AM)
The history of tribal migrations is very complicated.
It is but it hasn't quite changed the population of Greece in the modern era. No more than anywhere really IMO. Even places like Ireland have had about as much migrations.
This damned burg's getting me. If I don't get away soon I'll be going blood-simply like the natives. -
barbara-268 — 16 years ago(December 04, 2009 06:10 PM)
The beep kings of Egypt were Nubian, and very dark skinned. However, they only ruled Egypt for a few generations. Other short-term rulers of Egypt were the Hittites, Hyksos, and Persians. The rest of the history of Egypt up to the Ptolemies, the native rulers were all olive skinned Mediterranean people like the common Egyptian, Libyan, etc. Then with Ptolemy, the rulers were very light skinned Greeks for about 300 years all the way down to Cleopatra.
The dark skinned Nubian people of Upper Egypt were subjects of the Egyptians for long periods of time, so they would have been imported into the main part of Egypt as slave labor and mercenaries. It is reasonable to assume that they interbred with some of the Egyptians and created mixed offspring, but this would have been largely confined to the slave class and to a lesser extent the commonest class of Egyptian, such as the camp followers.
Quite a bit of tomb art shows the dark skinned Nubians alongside the light skinned Egyptians, so it was clear that the typical Egyptian was not dark skinned.
Interestingly, one of the Egyptian gods, I forget which one, is usually portrayed as being black in tomb paintings.
Regardless of all this, if a black actress (or Asian, or Eskimo, or whatever) can do a good job at portraying Cleopatra, I'm all for it. It isn't important. -
ProudTraitor — 17 years ago(July 12, 2008 02:29 AM)
What is "black" and what is "white"? These are just terms relating to skin color defined by society. Black people are not actually black, they are different shades of brown, and white people are from pale-pink to yellow.
Society could call Italians black or Ehiopians white if somehow the standards were different. Races blend into each other, and it is obvious that ancient Egyptians were somwhere between white and black.
Now today especially in the US, definiton of "black" is wide and basically includes all people with any kind of Subsaharan feature. What needs to be pointed out is the fact almost all African Americas have some European or Native American ancestry, The average being about 17-25%. This means the so called "lighter skinned" African Americans are almost mulattoes. That is why their skin tone is comparable to ancient Egyptians. If this wasn't the case all American blacks would look like Seal or Djimon Hounsou.
Go to Kenya or Nigeria and compare ordinary people there (not celebrities who are usually lighter) with Will Smith or Terrence Howard, and you will see what i mean.
On the other hand the definiton of white in US is quite narrow (White americans are overwhelmingly of North European dencent so the definiton is White = North and Central European; in many cases excluding even Greeks and Italians), compared to the more objective European definition, which usually includes Turks, Lebanese, Persians and lighter Arabs.
As for the Arab conquest People missunderstand the historic fact that Arabs came to Noth Africa from the East. As it is the case of majority of such conquests, they think this means they completely replaced the indigenous population. In reality the indigenous population only accepted their culure and religion with only minor genetic admixture from the conquerers. The Nile river had very high population density troughout history. Since today's Egyptians are of course overwhelmingly non-black, if ancient Egyptians were, this would mean they had to be completely eradicated and replaced by Arabs, which is very unlikely. Also modern genetic studies show Egptians are descendants of their ancestory who lived around the Nile, and their gene pool has not changed very much in 5 thousand years.
A crowd which is quite representative picture of today's Egpytians
http://shrani.si/f/42/1I/3fJz9Gpq/28670190675cdbb1c5eb.jpg
Also dental and cranial analysis from Mummies shows they are more similar to people of North African, Europe and Middle East, not so much Subsaran Africa, tough some similarities to them is present.
This picture very much debunks the black nationalist claims.
http://shrani.si/f/1/21/1EpjGMCA/1/races2.jpg
The Egyptian is the last one. Look at the facial features which are not similar to the Black guy's jaw, nose and mouth.
What partially contributed to darkness of pigmentation of ancient Egyptians is also exposure to hot sun. Majority of the population were farmers and spent most of the time outside. If you look at the wall paintings the are topless most of the time. The result is the reddish-brownish skin tone observed in the wall paintings and exactly what today's middle easternes look like who are much exposed to the sun.
http://shrani.si/f/1d/c3/2ISU6Tm2/145276066f9ecf80787o.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/2j/bx/2oC3RrT2/414113255bcf86b30c3o.jpg
Also woth noting is the fact Egypt conqered Nubia, and later for a while when Egypt weakened Nubians even ruled Egpyt. Immagine if India came to rule Briain after it's donwfall and much later some people concluded British people were brown, becouse the description of some of their leaders who were actually Indians.
I am white and do not think Ancient Egyptians were. But what bothers me when people want to "steal" an ancient culture from others, such as here some blacks and white nationalists want to steal the civilization from the rightful descendats, in this case today's Egyptians who are Middle Eastern. -
iesa_t — 11 years ago(October 22, 2014 02:15 AM)
No, wherever you got this from, it's not only wrong, but it's nonsense. First, Africa does not equal black people. Africa contained and still contains a range of feature types and skin colors, and it always did, even before persians or greeks, The idea that you seem to have clutched onto where everybody is magically black if you go 50 miles southwest is astonishing just for that. That entire area is extremely packed with people of various kinds and colors.
The true black, not just mocha brown, people originated from the middle three-fifths of the continent, and this makes a lot of sense when you consider how that sits under the equator. People tend to be dark skinned around the equator, and lighter towards the poles, but migration does mix things up a bit.
Egypt, however, has one of the longest, documented visual histories in the history of the world, painted on walls, carved in temples, brushed on papyrus, inlaid in goldthousands of years worth. Those are Egyptians on those walls, and they're tan, olive, or reddish tan, much like Native Americans in the southern states. They generally have sharp, delicate features, resembling europeans or asians with larger eyes, but in these images there are black people, with classic black features, and there would be: because they were visiting or captured from the areas they were native to, outside of Egypt. Many of those depicted are servants. Don't take that the wrong way though, because the other colors of Egyptians in those scenes are also servants. They were divided more by family ties than race. Everybody is a slave.
I have been reading an uptick of people claiming things like Horus and Osirus were truly balck, take back the black gods, etcbut this is so repugnantly misleading just on the face of it: Horus is a hawk headed God, whose face is made of features. becauseHawk Head! He does not have a Black hawk head, whatever good that would do your movement, and his body is never represented as dark skinned like a nubian, and there are dark skinned people represented, but they are not the majority of the figures.
Saying that Egyptians were black until they got rolled by outsiders is the kind of fantasy you have to be completely ignorant to believe. All of the records of ancient egypt left by the egyptians in paintings and sculptures over thousands of years strongely indicate the opposite. Sometimes they had Nubians over for a birthday party, and you can see the difference in the features side by side on the same wall. It's so clear, if you can be bothered to even look. -
LadyofAzul — 11 years ago(January 08, 2015 06:39 AM)
King Tut's grandmother,
Queen Tiye, does look like a black African to me
, so does her son, Akhenaten; and so does King Tut and her other grandchildren, plus her husband Amenhotep III looked black African too (
who is known for marrying several foreign wives
I honestly don't know how people could look at statues of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye and say these people were Caucasian or White. Their various statues make them look like Sub-Saharan Africans; and King Tut is their grandson and his own statues have black African features
(
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com:443/data.filmboards/images/upload/fnb7VR3.jpg
), yet there's still a huge debate on what race King Tut was. Even this king from the Third Dynasty looks black:
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com:443/data.filmboards/images/upload/fqwJlzs.jpg
But either way, the whole Egyptian race thing debate could go on forever. I like to think of them as a multiracial society
(
Egypt today is pretty mixed, one Egyptian could look more Sub-Saharan or Middle Eastern than another; and they don't have demographics separating white from black, they are all Egyptian
).
I mean, it's a civilization that's thousands of years old and was surrounded by other countries in the Mediterranean, the Middle East, and the Sahara, and, through the Kingdom of Kush, was connected to Sub-Saharan Africa. Egypt was conquered by a variety of different kingdoms/countries, ruled various other regions, and traded with many different groups of people. How could they not be multiracial?
Now King Tut and his family could of been biracial
but,
I would not look at any one of their statues
(
and those of some other Ancient Egyptians
), and say,
"
Hey, that looks like a White person!
"
How other people do is beyond me. Anyways, I think one DNA testing company from Sweden tried to do some kind of
DNA test on him and his father and grandfather and determined that they shared a Y-Haplogroup (
R1b1 or R-M343
) with most Western Europeans
, but that excludes their maternal lineage and
doesn't really mean they were Caucasian themselves
. It just that
they could have had paternal Caucasian ancestry
.
The belief that this automatically makes him White, like some people say, is wrong.
It's a 20,000-34,000 year old haplogroup and
people of the Central Sahel Region of Africa (
reaching all the way to Equatorial Guinea
) share this haplogroup as well that supposedly originated in the Middle East or South Asia.
I think you could probably
test nearly half of all Black American men and find their Y-Haplogroup or paternal line and match it to the ones shared by Western Europeans
(
I know you can for my dad because I had his paternal line tested. My father is black and hasn't had a white ancestor since my great-great-great grandfather who fathered my great-great grandfather with a woman from Guinea, West Africa, yet he is of the R1b1 haplogroup, specifically R-U106 which is descendant from R-M343
); most of the popular DNA testing companies say they find
the average African American to be 20% European.
West Africans have only been in America for a few hundred years, think of what that says about the black people in Africa and the admixture there. I think
they tested Rameses III's DNA too
(
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com:443/data.filmboards/images/upload/H5HqADU.jpg
) and
found it to be closest to the Haplogroup E-V38 from E1b1 (
a common Sub-Saharan African haplogroup said to originate in West Africa with a frequency rate of 90-100% from various West and South African tribes tested
)
, which can be found in many A
frican males throughout all parts of Africa
(
West, Central, South, North, and East
) and
the E-V38 haplogroup seems to be strongest in West and South Africans
(
like Yoruba, Mandinka, Bamileke, and several other Bantu tribes
found in West and South Africa) and
lowers the further east you go
(
though it's strongest at a 47% frequency rate in the nomadic
Tuareg people from Niger
in Northern and Eastern parts of Africa:
http://i57.tinypic.com/alq7ev.png
). However, I believe they say
DNA testing on mummies isn't 100% accurate
. So, it appears the
race of Ancient Egyptians is more complicated than just black or white
.
Africa is the most genetically diverse continent on Earth, so Egypt could have had pharaohs from many different haplogroups throughout the centuries
(
it is one of the oldest kingdoms on Earth
).
