I thought this movie was spectacular!
-
deadpixel128 — 9 years ago(October 25, 2016 05:23 PM)
When you completely dismiss all the evidence that refutes your argument, anything can be defended.
All you've done is ignore the evidence, lie, and insult people. I merely presented evidence that points to BvS being poorly-received by the general audience. You decided to attack me personally and stick your head in the sand.
If you can't defend a movie without bashing another, you will be put on ignore. No exceptions. -
Chiller7 — 9 years ago(October 25, 2016 05:30 PM)
I merely presented evidence that points to BvS being poorly-received by the general audience.
Except the scores you've cited in your own comment only proved my point. More people rated it positively than not.
You decided to attack me personally and stick your head in the sand.
All of a sudden you're SO sensitive to insults now, even though you're one of the ones hanging around here daily, attacking everyone who likes the movie? Gimme a break. -
deadpixel128 — 9 years ago(October 25, 2016 06:22 PM)
Except the scores you've cited in your own comment only proved my point. More people rated it positively than not.
Let's take the RT score for a minute. Currently, it's at 64% for the audience. This is around the same audience score that The Amazing Spider-Man 2 has. Actually, it's one percent lower, but that's within the margin of error. TASM2 was considered so bad that the studio sold the rights to Marvel and cancelled an entire cinematic universe that they had planned. BvS is considered just as bad, but somehow it's a success that most people like? TASM2 even had a higher critic rating!
This is the difference: you look at the number only, whereas I take the context into account. $872 million is certainly a lot of money, but considering the last movie with Batman in it made over a billion, the amount of hype the movie had, and the novelty of seeing these characters on-screen together for the first time, it is clearly below expectations. 64% is certainly a majority, but considering that other films with similar scores were considered failures, it stands to reason that BvS should also be considered a failure.
All of a sudden you're SO sensitive to insults now, even though you're one of the ones hanging around here daily, attacking everyone who likes the movie? Gimme a break.
I attack the movie, not people. The only people I insult are those who do not deserve my respect. People like Joby Dimms, Ramboman, etc. These people have not only insulted people, they have called for murder of anyone who does not share their opinion. I don't see anything wrong with insulting these people, when all they do is spread hatred. I will not, however, insult reasonable people who do not do these things. I will bash the film to no end, but I will not attack normal people who like it.
If you can't defend a movie without bashing another, you will be put on ignore. No exceptions. -
Chiller7 — 9 years ago(October 25, 2016 09:37 PM)
it's at 64% for the audience. This is around the same audience score that The Amazing Spider-Man 2 has. Actually, it's one percent lower
Nitpicking the scores again? You conveniently ignored my point of Captain America 2011 having a mere one-tenth of a point lead over BvS, by the way. You were going on and on about how BvS's score is "absurdly low," how it's proof of poor reception from the general audience, yet a beloved Marvel movie has just about the same score. Explain that one.
TASM2 was considered so bad that the studio sold the rights to Marvel and cancelled an entire cinematic universe that they had planned. This is the difference: you look at the number only, whereas I take the context into account
Here's some context for you: Amazing Spider-Man 2's box office was the low point of a consistent downward trend with each iteration of the Spider-Man movies making less money than the previous one. That is why the series was ended. You failed to recognize this. If you think some arbitrary RT scores or worthless critics ratings had anything to do with its cancellation whatsoever, you're missing the big picture.
In contrast, BvS is part of an upwards trend from Man of Steel, which, along with the spin-off/follow-up Suicide Squad exceeding all expectations, is good a good sign for the DCEU. BvS's total numbers actually rank decently high compared to previous movies in the Batman franchise and especially high within the Superman franchise. Yet you're trying to call all this a failure?
considering the last movie with Batman in it made over a billion it stands to reason that BvS should also be considered a failure
Just because it didn't beat the top movie of the past, Dark Knight, is hardly a reason to call it a failure. You're trying to make a big deal of BvS making less than Dark Knight, but it's natural for rebooted franchises to start lower before it trends back upwards.
Here's a point I brought up above, but got no reply, so I'll bring it up again: Just look at Batman Begins. Batman Begins made significantly less money than Batman (1989), Batman Returns, and Batman Forever. In fact, Batman Begins made almost the same box office money as Superman Returns, a film that failed to reboot the Superman Franchise.
It's normal for a rebooted franchise to not necessarily retain the entire fanbase of the previous series, thus start lower before it trends back up again, just as it was with the Dark Knight series, just as it is going for the DCEU. However, using the logic you've been using throughout this discussion, you'd have to consider Batman Begins a massive failure for failing to beat all those much older Batman movies. -
deadpixel128 — 9 years ago(October 26, 2016 06:53 AM)
You conveniently ignored my point of Captain America 2011 having a mere one-tenth of a point lead over BvS, by the way.
I ignored it because it has nothing to do with this discussion. In any event, outside of IMDb, the ratings are generally very solid, leaving IMDb as an outlier. Every rating for BvS is bad.
Here's some context for you: Amazing Spider-Man 2's box office was the low point of a consistent downward trend with each iteration of the Spider-Man movies making less money than the previous one.
Valid.
BvS's total numbers actually rank decently high compared to previous movies in the Batman franchise and especially high within the Superman franchise.
This is not "just" a Batman movie or "just" a Superman movie. This was expected to compete with Avengers; this was expected to outdo Civil War in terms of box office results. Comparing it to the f#cking Burton and Schumaker movies is laughable.
You're trying to make a big deal of BvS making less than Dark Knight, but it's natural for rebooted franchises to start lower before it trends back upwards.
But it's totally fine to compare it to the Burton and Schumaker movies, right?
Batman Begins made significantly less money than Batman (1989), Batman Returns, and Batman Forever. In fact, Batman Begins made almost the same box office money as Superman Returns, a film that failed to reboot the Superman Franchise.
Begins also had a significantly smaller budget than Superman Returns and was very well-received by critics and audiences. In addition, though its final box office intake was fairly low, it did perform above expectations based on its opening weekend.
http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Batman-Begins#box-office
Meanwhile, Superman Returns received mediocre reviews and disinterest from the general public, and, unlike Begins, failed to make twice its budget, which is the general rule of thumb for a movie to be considered a success.
BvS not only received poor reviews from critics and mediocre reviews from general audiences, it failed to meet even the lowest expectations based on its opening weekend.
http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Batman-v-Superman-Dawn-of-Justice#tab=box-office
If you can't defend a movie without bashing another, you will be put on ignore. No exceptions. -
Chiller7 — 9 years ago(October 26, 2016 03:18 PM)
I ignored it because it has nothing to do with this discussion
So you get to go on and on about BvS & Amazing Spiderman 2 having nearly the same score as proof that both movies are bad. But BvS & Captain America having nearly the same score has nothing to do with this discussion? Okay, hypocrite.
outside of IMDb, the ratings are generally very solid, leaving IMDb as an outlier. Every rating for BvS is bad.
How about Metacritic's user score of 7.0/10? Are you gonna dismiss that as another outlier? Your own words: "When you completely dismiss all the evidence that refutes your argument, anything can be defended."
But it's totally fine to compare it to the Burton and Schumaker movies, right?
I never claimed you can't compare to older movies at all. The point I was making was that the drop from Dark Knight to BvS is normal part of rebooting the franchise. This reason excuses BvS for not beating Dark Knight, just like it excuses Batman Begins for not beating the Burton/Schumacher Batmans, just like it excuses Casino Royale for not beating past James Bond movies, same for so many other reboots. You, on the other hand, jumped all over BvS for not beating Dark Knight, but refused to apply the same rules to Batman Begins. Hypocrite.
make twice its budget, which is the general rule of thumb for a movie to be considered a success
Yeah, and BvS made three and a half times its budget, but you insist it's a failure. Okay, hypocrite.
http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Batman-Begins#box-office
Thanks, by the way, for introducing me to that numbers website. Interesting stats on there. $60 million so far in home video sales? Yeah, what a failure -
deadpixel128 — 9 years ago(October 26, 2016 03:36 PM)
So you get to go on and on about BvS & Amazing Spiderman 2 having nearly the same score as proof that both movies are bad. But BvS & Captain America having nearly the same score has nothing to do with this discussion? Okay, hypocrite.
I'm sorry, I forgot TFA (we really need a new acronym for that) was so bad it caused Marvel to completely abandon their plans for The Avengers.
TASM2 was poorly-received across the board, including on IMDb (6.7, roughly the same as BvS and TFA). TFA was only poorly-received on IMDb.
How about Metacritic's user score of 7.0/10? Are you gonna dismiss that as another outlier? Your own words: "When you completely dismiss all the evidence that refutes your argument, anything can be defended."
Anyone with eyes can see that score has been artificially inflated with 10/10 ratings. And, yes, when something is
that
far off the general consensus, I will mark it as an outlier.
Hey, let's check the IMDb ratings! What's that? 18% are 10/10? Wow! And people say Marvel pays people off! WB managed to get all those fanboys to give it 10/10 for free!
I never claimed you can't compare to older movies at all. The point I was making was that the drop from Dark Knight to BvS is normal part of rebooting the franchise.
One must also consider that Begins was coming off the universally reviled Batman & Robin, was from a then-unknown director, and was a vastly different approach than every other comic book movie of the time. It was always going to be an uphill battle, and it performed very well, as you saw. BvS was coming off MoS, which was more polarizing than universally hated, and TDKR was still extremely well-received. In addition, the approach of the film is still very much in the mold of the Nolan films, with their focus on gritty realism. The two situations are not comparable.
Yeah, and BvS made three and a half times its budget, but you insist it's a failure. Okay, hypocrite.
You say I'm a hypocrite because I "ignore" certain "facts," yet you completely ignore that BvS failed to meet even the lowest expectations.
$60 million so far in home video sales? Yeah, what a failure
Man of Steel made over $60 million on Blu-Rays alone. That's a drop if I've ever seen one.
If you can't defend a movie without bashing another, you will be put on ignore. No exceptions. -
Chiller7 — 9 years ago(October 27, 2016 04:33 PM)
Man of Steel made over $60 million on Blu-Rays alone. That's a drop if I've ever seen one.
Actually, I've realized that The Numbers website has only released its home video sales figures up until August. BvS was released on home video in July, so in other words, $60 million is only the amount it made in just one month alone. It's still selling well, so it's going to easily surpass Man of Steel in home video sales. There's not gonna be a drop at all from Man of Steel to BvS.
But since you've decided to make drops in sequel sales into a thing, here are some figures for you:
Percentage drops in home video sales:
Dark Knight to Dark Knight Rises: -52%
Iron Man to Iron Man 3: -58%
Avengers to Avengers Age of Ultron: -67%
you completely ignore that BvS failed to meet even the lowest expectations.
Your own words were "make twice its budget, which is the general rule of thumb for a movie to be considered a success." BvS's budget: $250 million. By your own logic, it only needed $500 million to meet the lowest expectations. It made way more than that. You lose. -
deadpixel128 — 9 years ago(October 27, 2016 04:45 PM)
It's still selling well
Citation needed.
Dark Knight to Dark Knight Rises: -52%
Iron Man to Iron Man 3: -58%
Avengers to Avengers Age of Ultron: -67%
Fair enough. I will point out that home video sales in general have decreased in general over the past few years due to the rise of streaming services, however. And comparing Iron Man's sales to Iron Man 3's sales is sort of disingenuous. Comparing IM1 to IM2 or IM2 to IM3 would be more fair.
Your own words were "make twice its budget, which is the general rule of thumb for a movie to be considered a success." BvS's budget: $250 million. By your own logic, it only needed $500 million to meet the lowest expectations. It made way more than that. You lose.
First of all, I never said BvS wasn't profitable. I said it failed to meet the expectations set by its opening weekend. Second of all, you either failed to understand the statistics I gave to you or you are actively lying and misrepresenting those facts to defend your argument.
http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Batman-v-Superman-Dawn-of-Justice#tab=box-office
See this chart? See the description of what it means? "The shaded area represents the expected performance range for a film, based on its opening weekend box office. 95% of films fall within the shaded area. If a film trends towards the top end of the shaded area, it has good legs compared to the average film;
if it trends towards the bottom end of the shaded area, it has poor legs
." Not only did it trend toward the bottom of the shaded area, it went below it. Based on this data, it failed to meet even the lowest reasonable expectation of performance based on the strength of its opening weekend. It opened strong, but failed to keep up that momentum. By comparison, Man of Steel did much better, though it still didn't perform particularly well.
If you can't defend a movie without bashing another, you will be put on ignore. No exceptions. -
Kyos — 9 years ago(October 26, 2016 08:31 AM)
You conveniently ignored my point of Captain America 2011 having a mere one-tenth of a point lead over BvS, by the way. You were going on and on about how BvS's score is "absurdly low," how it's proof of poor reception from the general audience, yet a beloved Marvel movie has just about the same score. Explain that one.
Captain America: The First Avenger
was a solid origin movie for a (worldwide) not overly popular character. For me personally it's one of the few CBMs that I came to appreciate more and more over the years, but it wasn't exactly a groundbreaking blockbuster when it came out.
BvS had DC's two biggest characters together in a movie for the first time (arguably the biggest superheroes in general besides Spider-Man), both of which had beloved and acclaimed movies in the past (Batman alone two big hits a few years prior), as well as the first big screen appearance ever of the most important female superhero in the world. It was one of the most hyped superhero movies of all time.
Cap TFA was about an old-fashioned character called Captain
America
, who basically dresses in the American flag, and who in the past had a bunch of mostly ridiculed (TV) movies on his rsum.
One movie had more or less everything going for it, the other not very much, except for smaller expectations. So it is quite fascinating that the latter is actually even slightly better rated. -
Patron-89 — 9 years ago(October 25, 2016 08:35 PM)
Completely agree, BVS is a spectacular film, especially the Ultimate Edition, a great story of on examining prejudice against the unknown. Unfortunately, the film is unappropriated and frankly criminally underrated.