The issue with the DCEU…
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eljay60 — 9 years ago(December 03, 2016 03:30 AM)
It seems to me that DCEU is trying to ground the films in realism, to separate themselves from the more playful side of MCU. It worked great for Nolan's work - his Batman was a single agent, the only 'superhero' in the world, and as far as I remember, the rules of physics weren't broken in his cinematic vision, at least in the first two movies (don't remember the 3rd that well).
But trying to bring realism to a world with Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, et al, just doesn't work. A being with Superman's abilities is a game changer. If he's evil, you can't stop him; if he's not, you don't need to. Snyder seemed to get that bit, but fell apart on the execution because it seems what he really wanted to do was to remake Nolan's vision. And Batman in a world of superbeings is really outclassed. The scripts have to tie themselves in knots to create a scenario where he's not out of the fight in the first 10 seconds.
Unfortunately for DC fans, the flawed movies are profitable. The suits at WB could care less about character and continuity and feel totally justified as they cash their bonus checks. Snyder's powerful visual images may make for an incoherent story, but they do make awesome raw material for the marketing department to work with.
#TeamCap
Unapologetic Moffat fangirl
Beans are evil. Bad, bad beans. -
fourthwall1-2 — 9 years ago(December 03, 2016 06:47 AM)
Snyders realism or nolans has nothing to do with physics. BTW The Batman Begins has the tumbler hopping from roof to roof like a toy. Pretty bad physics.
The realism in the movies comes from consequences and human perspective. Snyder's universe is better than marvel in regards to consequence and death. MoS ends with a massacre of people. These movies have a more serious feel which leads to a more dire need to stop the villains in this world. I love it. -
gannincuss — 9 years ago(December 03, 2016 01:25 PM)
How do these movies have consequences? Man of Steel ended with Superman killing a man with his bare hands, and it's NEVER BROUGHT UP AGAIN. It would have been interesting if he was affected by this, if he showed remorse for what he had done. Instead, it's straight on to the next action scene of him destroying a government satellite and joking about it or plowing a man through walls.
The only consequences I see are Snyder's ham fisted attempts to placate the people who had a problem with the death count by saying "We're in an abandoned part of the city." every 10 f@cking minutes. -
exe_malaga93 — 9 years ago(December 03, 2016 04:46 PM)
Or that they are rushing way too much in building it up. MCU has issues too (even some I agree with), but it won't change the fact that they at least took their time.
Oh, and the unnecessary philosophical and theological content and symbolism than they resorted to in BvS and some instances in MoS. I hope they try at least to tone it down in further movies. -
Gadget110 — 9 years ago(December 03, 2016 05:24 PM)
Atleast Marvel knows what the hell they are doing, their success on both the big screen and the small screen shows this. DC needs to go back to the drawling board, kick Snyder out, and hired the people who made the DCAU(BTAS, SPTAS, JL, JL:U) cause their "brand: on the big screen is just a bad joke.
Superman, and Batman deserve so much better, not long ago DC had "Batman Begins", and "The Dark Knight" two of the best comic book films ever, they need to look at thos films and see what they did that made them so good cause the current films from MOS and onward have been bottom of the barrel garbage.
"Always two there are , a master and an apprentice" -
SuperDevilDoctor — 9 years ago(December 05, 2016 03:02 AM)
is that it keeps building on a horrible version of the Justice League's heart. Man of Steel perverted the Superman myth and BvS built on it further drastically changing the heroes personas.
in your opinion
.
I'm an old geezer who was reading these comics (and suffering through the Adam West era of "Comedy Batman") decades before most of you were born or even before your
parents
were born.
I love MAN OF STEEL. Finally, somebody made the kind of Superman movie I've always wanted to see!
And the Ultimate Cut of BVS is every bit as good as the best MCU films.
Send her to the snakes! -
exe_malaga93 — 9 years ago(December 05, 2016 09:34 AM)
Mmmm.. I don't think is only his opinion. Me, and other comic-book readers also think it deviates way too much of what Superman represents, well specially BvS, which takes it to an extreme level. The character left me cold after the movie. Unless there's a radical change of attitude when he returns in JL, I'm afraid he's destined to be overshadowed by the others, specially WW and Aquaman, the latter may even be the standout. Not too mention that with if they stick to this take on the character, a solo franchise may be just as underwhelming.
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fourthwall1-2 — 9 years ago(December 05, 2016 07:53 PM)
superman shows remorse right after killing zod. I don't think people want superman to mope anymore. But killing zod had to be done. he wasn't going to stop killing people. Moving on.
There is no way of knowing superman killed the guy he went through the wall with. It looks like he tackles him, tumbling himelf throught he wall. but I'll agree its a fair criticism.
marvels timely buildup doe not really pay off with the avengers movie. Loki is a weak villain not worth popping in six or 8 films for. The alien invaders are like default sci fi channel pew pew laser blasting throw aways.
Avengers didn't even bring anything to the table to beat loki on their own. Iron man accidently brought the scientist back from lokis staff control by shooting the tesseract*. he didn't even know he did it when it was a plot detail that black widow punched Hawkeye in the head and knew she brought him back from lokis same control.
Without the nuke provided by the government, what were the avengers going to do by get tired and die from the hordes of invaders?
BvS had little to no story. I agree with peoples complaints. But what it was about was the worlds reaction to one man with god like power. Socially. Politically. religiously- then from the angle of Lex Luthor who wants to prove god/superman fallible. then you have batmans reaction. Good story. -
exe_malaga93 — 9 years ago(December 05, 2016 09:14 PM)
I couldn't care less about Supes killing criticism. I know he even did that a couple of times in some comics.
Anyway, as I said before DC seems to be rushing way too much in starting to build-up its live-action universe. Whether like Marvel or not, at least they took their time to introduce their characters. BvS just tried to fit and shoehorn too much in only two and a half hours, and don't get me started with Joker in SS. I don't think that paid off either.
And obviously, all that "deep" commentary is another problem with the film IMO, too much politics, social views, etc. and little story (BTW Superman is hated by more than half the world's population, but at the end he recieves a funeral with honors?). All that philosophical discussion didn't even elaborate in Luthor's motives, and why Batman is willing to kill a more powerful being (at least they could've shown Lex during the TV montage).
There have been better crossover stories in the comics and animated media: "Public Enemies" (both film and comic), "The Man Who Has Everything", "The Dark Night Returns", "Trinity", "Dark Knigth Over Metropolis", "Apocalypse" movie, etc. All cohesive reads and watches that didn't have to resort to have too much on it.
I want to like what DC and Warner are doing, they have characters with potential, but if they don't know how to use them in live-action, films are gonna suffer for it. -
fourthwall1-2 — 9 years ago(December 05, 2016 11:03 PM)
"Anyway, as I said before DC seems to be rushing way too much in starting to build-up its live-action universe."
I can agree. but we are about 35minutes deep in to the 1 hour of fame super heroes movies have. DC is late geting started with their universe but to their credit had a good Nolan Batman run.
But I'll ask t his: why do they need to build the same way as marvel. In my opinoin Solo movies are good but not necessary. It has a very contrived step one, two, three, four etc then you get a team movie. Then you start over with solo films again. Which is cool.
But I like DC's more organic take- which is a catch-up plan. Man of steel happens- which catches the worlds attention including batman and luthor and from there Batman seeks other meta humans. I like it. it's a vaible option.
"And obviously, all that "deep" commentary is another problem with the film IMO, too much politics, social views, etc. and little story"
I actually really enjoyed the commentary about supermans existence. it would change the world. Aliens exist. Aliens with god like power exist and how people feel about it. Too little story? Tell that to Max Fans. I don't care for that movie but respect the feeling of those who do.
"All that philosophical discussion didn't even elaborate in Luthor's motives, and why Batman is willing to kill a more powerful being (at least they could've shown Lex during the TV montage). "
Luthors motives were elaborated. He had hang-ups about God from when he was a kid- suffering the abuse of his father. He prayed for god to deliver him from that abuse and it never came. Then superman shows up and is praised for being god-like. So he wants to show the world how fallible superman can be. Which is funny because the first thing superman does when doomsday tries to punch lex is stop his fist.
Batman wanted to kill superman because of HIS personal reaction to his god-like power. He hints that he's been burned before by good guys turning bad. And if there was a chance superman could turn bad it would be the world greatest detriment.
I don't doubt you when you say there better crossovers. I like Dark Knight returns. But I like the pioneering of new ideas. I don't want to see flashpoint paradox the movie. Or suicide squad assault on arkham. Those have already been done.
Say what you will about snyder, I wont tell you you're wrong. But what I like is how he genuinely tries to make a good movie. One you wish you could hang on your wall. He missed the mark for a lot of people but the positive side is it gives him perspective and a chance to calibrate to our needs instead of so much his own.
Cant wait to see where it goes. -
exe_malaga93 — 9 years ago(December 07, 2016 06:37 PM)
Snyder never understood this characters. And it's all reflected in the messy script. I don't think his vision will benefit this universe. I trust future directors like Affleck and Wan to give better, freshier ideas. With Geoff Johns already in the mix, I feel we'll get superior products. Plus, a messianic, god-like Supes has been already explored by Moore, and with better results.
It seems that Snyder himself is not having a more active role in further movies, and luckily the Wonder Woman trailers seem like that's the case this time, though I've yet to see how JL turns out, but for now they left a positive impression: yes, even JL Comic-Con footage (the saddest thing is that I didn't even notice Supes' abscence; for now, I say he'll have to change a lot to become a leader in this universe).
Also, I think it's better to have a slow built up than just a lot of "teasers" and quick cameos in one movie. DC probably wanted to avoid to add a post-credit scene in BvS, but it backfired so bad because it felt distracting. Solo movies are good, true and if it's a new universe, they need of course to introducing new characters that have more history in the comics and deserve a live-action treatment (well-made, of course): that's why I think Supes deserves better, SS too, hope Flash turns out decent, Wonder Woman looks awesome, I have faith in James Wan's take on Aquaman, etc. -
fourthwall1-2 — 9 years ago(December 08, 2016 10:48 PM)
My one last defense of Superman here, is we haven't seen the beginning of superman. I mean, his first time being a struggle. The Christopher Reeves movie kinda cheats. They lock superman up in the cave of solitude for two minutes and when he comes out, he's everything everyone knows about the character. I like these two movies that feel like the rough begining for heroes coming together. The misunderstandings. The recklessness.
My question to you is, if the new movies improve, will it retroactively make these two films better with the darkness and misunderstanding seeming more like a story narrative as a prelude to the characters we all know and love?
At the end of BvS. Superman seems to have accepted the good and bad with living on earth. In justice league, Batman has remorse for his BvS actions. -
exe_malaga93 — 9 years ago(December 09, 2016 01:03 PM)
If that's the case and I had to wait through three movies to see the character shining, I'd still feel there was something wrong with the writing. I doubt my opinion will change for BvS and MoS even if there is a vast improvement from JL and the upcoming solo sequel.
And it's not the Christopher Reeve movie alone. There are other depictions that set the bar too high for my liking: the Animated series, movies, and so on, the John Byrne run in the 80's, and even the divisive origin story Earth One shows his vulnerable and human sides, but without ignoring what made the character great in the first place.