Season Ending with Mask - Wasn't Matt just selling himself out?
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windquake — 9 years ago(July 28, 2016 01:55 PM)
He probably was pretty low at that point, on a personal level. Stick left, Electra dead (that he knows of), Frank gone in the wind, Foggy leaving for another firmso right.
Nothing to lose as dmcreif said. He had nothing but an upside from his point of view. Either she says "yay" and they start going out again, or she runs from the situation and he is where he is now anyway.
He has known Karen now for a couple years and he knows she won't ever tell anyone.
I hate IMDB's Signature policy -
masterofallgoons — 9 years ago(July 28, 2016 02:01 PM)
He's confident she won't tell anyone. But if they follow the Frank Miller story, which I think could be really good, she might indeed sell him out to Fisk in desperation. In that story she's an addict (and begrudging porn actress) and she falls off the wagon and had her worst moment and sells his identity. Matt's life totally falls apart from there as Fisk dismantles his finances and professional life. His ability to forgive her definitely works with the Catholic angle this show likes to explore. I wouldn't be surprised if they go there at some point. She does have some dark past that we haven't learned about yet, after all.
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dmcreif — 9 years ago(November 29, 2016 09:54 AM)
Nothing to lose as dmcreif said. He had nothing but an upside from his point of view. Either she says "yay" and they start going out again, or she runs from the situation and he is where he is now anyway.
He has known Karen now for a couple years and he knows she won't ever tell anyone.
It occurred to me that Matt thinks Karen might be more predisposed to accept of him being Daredevil than Foggy was.
The first reason I think Karen would be more accepting and forgiving of Matt for being Daredevil is because unlike Foggy, she's personally seen Matt in action as Daredevil. That's a big difference. To Foggy, Matt's actions as Daredevil exist in the abstract, as stories and images that play on the evening news. He has no connection to anything in the other half of Matt's life. He doesn't see Matt out there getting beaten up and chasing down Kitchen Irishmen, Hand ninjas, or Dogs of Hell bikers. But to Karen, Matt's actions as Daredevil aren't in the abstract or something that you hear about on the evening news, because she's actually seen him in action. She knows that in recovering the USB with the Union Allied pension file, she'd be dead if Matt hadn't shown up and subdued Wilson Fisk's hitman. She also personally saw Matt engaging the Hand ninjas who were holding her and the others captive, the same ninjas who were about to amputate Turk's foot.
The second thing I point out is a specific scene. It's when Karen visits Matt at his apartment after the hospital shooting in "Dogs to a Gunfight". First, she admits she is barely holding it together and doesn't like being used for target practice. In the same conversation, there's this exchange:
Karen Page:
Sometimes I worry about you a little too much.
Matt Murdock:
I appreciate it. There's no need to worry.
Karen Page:
Yeah, you know that doesn't help, right? You denying that there's anything wrong?
Matt Murdock:
Karen-
Karen Page:
No, how many times can I hear that you "fell down the stairs" or you "walked into a door"?
Matt Murdock:
Well, you know I'm blind-
Karen Page:
And you know that I'm not an idiot. [beat] Okay, um, let's say this:
when or if you ever feel like you can tell me what's going on with you, I promise that I'm here. Is that a deal?
Matt Murdock:
That is a deal.
I bolded that line because that's a very telling line in hindsight. It means Karen is willing to hear Matt out if he decides to admit what's going on with him. I think Matt took Karen's advice and that line in particular, when admitting his identity to her.
And then there's the rest of that conversation: Karen then admits to Matt that she feels the Punisher was inevitable after the public began cheering on Daredevil and her voice seems to break a few times while she's talking. It seems like she didn't want to admit these things while in Foggy's presence.
Third, I point to Karen's insistence on pursuing justice to the very end, first when taking down Wilson Fisk, and later when she insists that they look into the Punisher getting shot and Reyes being involved in the cover-up, even after Foggy begs her to let it go. We know that Karen is a very determined individual, and refuses to let go of an investigation no matter how many other people try to convince her otherwise, no matter how many times they get put in danger, and no matter the personal cost on those around them. Matt seems to be one of the few to actively support Karen's determination, probably because he realizes she's just like him: he refuses to let go of his pursuits of Fisk, the Punisher, or the Hand even when this gets him regularly injured, destroys his friendship with Foggy, gets Nelson & Murdock shuttered, or gets Elektra killed. So in Matt's eyes, he and Karen are very alike in their determination to get justice for those the system has failed, the only difference being that Karen doesn't have Stick's training. They also have a tendency to keep secrets from those they trust; Matt's been keeping Karen in the dark about hisahem, dark passenger, while she's keeping secrets from Matt and Foggy like the fact that she killed James Wesley. There's also the two having a tendency to lie about major or minor things, Matt when it comes to Daredevil, while with Karen, she claims Tower slipped her the files when she actually stole them, or claims that Frank Castle kidnapped her when she really ran off with him.
Fourth, there's Karen's conversation with Castle at the diner in ".380". She admits that she's got complicated feelings for Matt, and Castle gives her some blunt relationship advice that, in theory, might rub off on her just enough that she's willing to give Matt a second chance. -
dmcreif — 9 years ago(November 29, 2016 02:44 PM)
On top of that, Deborah Ann Woll has suggested in interviews that Karen is going to accept that Matt is Daredevil in her own way, very different from Foggy's. I interpret that as meaning Karen is accepting and approving of Matt's Daredevil schtick, where Foggy disapproved.
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Castle177 — 9 years ago(August 05, 2016 12:12 PM)
Uh-oh. I know it's natural for these characters to be upset but they always become so annoying in those circumstances. Personally I love Foggy but his moments just after finding out about Matt were some of his worst. Iris became insufferable during that one episode of the Flash where she found out about Barry. I hope they handle Karen a little better.
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rockart9-580-802499 — 9 years ago(August 16, 2016 01:13 AM)
I doubt that. In the comics, when Karen found out she left. I think despite her "I promise I'll be here comment in early of season 2" she wont be staying and that Matt telling her would be his biggest mistake. The show sets up a crucial DD arc better than the actual comics did.
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dmcreif — 9 years ago(December 07, 2016 08:09 AM)
One thing's for sure. If Foggy gave Matt a hard time for being Daredevil, just wait until Karen gets her turn.
I dunno. You have to consider that for Foggy and Karen, they have different windows from which to have their viewpoints regarding the Devil of Hell's Kitchen. Foggy? The only insight he really has into Matt's actions is what he watches on the evening news. Karen on the other hand, has the window of Matt saving her life on two different occasions: first from Rance, and then from the Hand. -
DracTarashV — 9 years ago(December 07, 2016 10:16 PM)
When I think about Foggy not accepting what Matt does, I mostly take into account his concern for his friend's safety. But you're right, while Karen will obviously be concerned for Matt, I can definitely see her being far more understanding about the whole thing than Foggy was (that is, after Matt explains to her how exactly he's capable of doing what he does).
You want something corny? You got it! -
dmcreif — 9 years ago(December 07, 2016 10:33 PM)
But you're right, while Karen will obviously be concerned for Matt, I can definitely see her being far more understanding about the whole thing than Foggy was (that is, after Matt explains to her how exactly he's capable of doing what he does).
That, plus Karen probably can relate to Matt's style, as they both have this same attitude of refusing to stop a pursuit of any perceived injustice even when this means jeopardizing their own safety.