Would Barry remember Stein's daughter?
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Marvel/DC
sanddragon939 — 9 years ago(December 04, 2016 12:59 PM)
An interesting thought experiment in temporal mechanics.
So we now know that Lily Stein was not the product of Flashpoint, but of Stein's own interference with his past.
Which begs the question though
Would Barry remember Lily Stein?
That is to say, did Lily Stein exist in the timeline Barry remembers?
Now its been established that time-travelers usually remember the timelines they originate from.
The question is, in a scenario with multiple time-travelers making multiple trips at the same time, the question arises - what came first?
On a metaphysical level, did Stein meeting his younger self in 1987 happen 'before' Barry ran back to save his mom? Or 'after'?
And you can't say that Barry's change happened first because the episode in which it happened aired first. From a sequential POV, Stein and the other Legends left 2016 around the same time Barry ran back to cause Flashpoint. And since the Legends are constantly time-traveling, and for the most part to eras before 2000 (which is where the changes Barry made originate)well, its difficult to really figure out which change happened 'first' on a metaphysical level.
But think about it this way - if Barry remembers Stein having a daughter, then it means that, sequentially speaking, the Legends had to have left 2016 (after meeting Rex Tyler) before the scene on the porch after Barry defeated Zoom, and then the change Stein made in 1987 'rippled' into the future such that Barry in 2016 now remembered Stein having a daughter before he ran back to cause Flashpoint.
Alternatively, if Barry doesn't remember Stein having a daughter, then it means that Barry ran back in time to cause Flashpoint (and subsequently the current timeline) ''before'' the Legends left 2016 at the end of their first season.
Does this mean that, logically, Stein and the other Legends are from the new timeline Barry created? And that Stein could, theoretically, remember Barry mentioning a Julian Albert sometime around 2015?
The fact that Barry and the Legends are frequent time-travelers and were so even before these specific changes complicates things immensely.
But waitthere's one more thing to take into account. Namely the first episode of LoT which saw Nate Heywood joining the team after he and Oliver found Mick Rory in statis aboard the sunken Waverider in 2016.
The Oliver we saw in that LoT episode almost certainly was the one from the post-Flashpoint timeline. Which means that the same applies to Nate.
So this is how I picture the sequence of events
For the sake of convenience, here's this key-
A = Pre-Flashpoint timeline
B = Post-Flashpoint timeline
X = Martin Stein has no daughter
Y = Martin Stein has a daughter
Originally we're in an AX timeline. It is from this timeline that the Legends leave May 2016, after meeting Rex Tyler. At this point, all the Legends who leave (namely Rip, Sara, Mick, Ray, Stein, Jax), remember the AX timeline (i.e. pre-Flashpoint timeline where Stein has no child). After several months (from their POV), the Legends end up scattered in time, Rip goes missing, and Rory is left in statis aboard the Waverider after its hit with an atom bomb in 1942 and sinks.
Then, around the same time (or maybe a few days later since the episode aired later), Barry runs back in time causing Flashpoint, which is then fixed after a few months, resulting in the BX timeline. The sunken Waverider of course is unaffected by the changeits been there long before the year 2000 and what happened in the Allen house doesn't affect its presence there at all. However, the Waverider and Rory inside it are both from the AX timeline.
In the BX timeline, around October 2016, Nate and Oliver find Rory and revive him. Rory takes the ship back, along with Nate, and rescues the other Legends. Its worth noting here that Nate is from the BX timeline (the other Legends are all AX).
Then, at some point, the Legends go to 1987, Stein interacts with his younger self, and the result is that Stein now has a daughter, Lily. This results in what is essentially a BY timeline.
When the Legends return, to December 2016, its in the BY timeline and so Stein finds he has a daughter he never remembers having (since he himself is from the AX timeline).
Coming back to the original question - would Barry remember?
Barry's technically from an AX timeline. Caitlin, Cisco etc. are from a BY timeline (they've never time-traveled, before the crossover at least, so they change along with everyone else). Stein and the other Legends are AX, Nate is a BX.
But could Barry possibly be from an AY timeline? Do time-travelers remember only an 'original timeline' relative to changes they THEMSELVES make to the timeline?
Because, by that logic, Barry could retroactively have remembered Stein having a daughter when he was on the porch in Season 2, before he ran back to cause Flashpoint?
But then, you could flip it and say that Stein, by that logic, could theoretically remember Barry mentioning a Julian Albert he hates in 2015?
And nowmy -
stargazer_1682 — 9 years ago(December 04, 2016 03:43 PM)
then it means that, sequentially speaking, the Legends had to have left 2016 (after meeting Rex Tyler) before the scene on the porch after Barry defeated Zoom, and then the change Stein made in 1987 'rippled' into the future such that Barry in 2016 now remembered Stein having a daughter before he ran back to cause Flashpoint.
I think it's plausible they had left the "present", whatever that would be relatively speaking for them, before Barry created Flashpoint; though it might not matter, because we have seen causality catch up to them no matter where they are in time - case in point, Stein's new memories.
What this made me think about though is, could Barry Prime - the Barry we've seen since season 1, who has been the only contiguous main character in Flash apart from Eobard Thawne - ever be affected by a new timeline? Think about it; let's say Stein's change did happen Post-Flashpoint; because from a certain standpoint it did. As the ripple effect spreads out across time and reaches November/December 2016, and is overwriting the people in its wake with the new reality of the existence of this one woman who didn't previous exist - provided of course that as some measure of effect, they would have memories of this woman; or be otherwise influenced by her existence - when that affect reaches Barry Allen, which version of Barry should it produce? If it were to have any affect on him at all, shouldn't it cause him to become the Barry Allen indigenous to the Post-Flashpoint timeline? I mean, by all rights he should have merged and taken on the memories of this new timeline anyway, since that's what was happening in Flashpoint, but if time is reorganizing reality to reflect this altered sequence of events, where a new person exists; it's basically rebuilding a localized piece of the universe from the ground up, second by second, from the moment the change in history occurred, on through eternity. According to the blueprint of the new temporal order of things, the version of Barry Allen it should create is not only a Barry Allen that knows of, and has probably met the junior Dr. Stein, but is also combined with the altered flow of history of the Post-Flashpoint timeline. So he should be Barry Allen-BY, but he's not. He's the Barry Allen-A or Barry Prime as I like to call him; the original recipe, season 1, Pre-Flashpoint, Pre-Pied-Piper-is-a-friend-and-not-an-enemy version of this person.
So what it might be is, if you pictured time as a river; there's a point along the course of that river where Barry Prime emerges from the past, after undoing Flashpoint. In the instant immediately preceding that, there was a Barry Allen-B; who had refused Cisco's request to go back and save Dante, and in my mind may not have created his own version of Flashpoint at all, because that becomes even more nuts to try and reconcile. He didn't go back, he stayed, Dante died during the summer, meaning it may or may not have been a direct result of Flashpoint; and when Barry Prime emerged from being outside of time, Barry Allen-B disappeared, supplanted by Barry Prime. Whatever effect caused the erasure, or merger of Barry Prime and Barry-B, acted as sort of a break in the current that rewrites history; like a giant stone dug into the river bed, defiantly sticking up above the waves, diverting the current around it; as Barry Prime sits on top of it, untouched by the waves causing the changes in time - where he may be permanently stuck, forever unaffected by changes to history. This may have more to do with his connection to the speed force, than anything else, because this version of Barry is always the one to come out the other side in the course of time travel; he's the one that any past or alternate version is replaced with. I was going to qualify that there have been times he hasn't replaced them - like when he went back a year to talk to Wells/Thawne. And while it's true that he didn't replace his 1-year younger self at that time, strictly speaking he did eventually replace him by the time he returned to the present; because that version of Barry would go on to lead his life in the slightly altered timeline, where Hartley remains friends with Team Flash, and upon returning to the present, Barry Prime, the Barry with no memory of that timeline, does end up taking his place. Flashpoint seems to be the only exception to that, making it an outlier. It would be interesting to see a scenario play out where Barry, for a change, isn't the one to alter the past; and we see time change around him, and he's the only one who becomes aware that anything is different.
He lied to us through song! I hate when people do that." -
chrisjozo — 9 years ago(December 04, 2016 07:20 PM)
Stein changed time first. Barry if I'm not mistaken is roughly the same age maybe younger than Steins daughter. Her birth would have preceded his mother's death by many years. Everything that happened before his mother's death date would have still happened. Flashpoint won't change things that happened before it occurred.
Shawn: I solve a case every week and usually one around Christmas -
sanddragon939 — 9 years ago(December 05, 2016 09:47 AM)
Stein changed time first. Barry if I'm not mistaken is roughly the same age maybe younger than Steins daughter. Her birth would have preceded his mother's death by many years. Everything that happened before his mother's death date would have still happened. Flashpoint won't change things that happened before it occurred.
That's not necessarily how it works. Sequence in terms of multiple time-travelers doesn't have anything to do with the chronological placement of the time-period where the change was being made.
The way I see it, its about cause and effect. Stein only went to 1987 and interacted with his past self AFTER Nate and Oliver found Rory in the submerged Waverider in 2016. A 2016 in which John Diggle has a son, John Jr. rather than a daughter Sara. Ergo, a post-Flashpoint 2016.
It means Barry went back, messed up the timeline and then fixed it sequentially speaking BEFORE Stein interacted with his younger self.
Formerly sn939 -
shubhtandon7 — 9 years ago(December 05, 2016 11:10 AM)
I think the words 'before' and 'after' can not be used from a temporal/metaphysical perspective. All timelines with respect to flashpoint and 'steinpoint' are either AX or BY. Hence, BX and AY never existed to begin with. Time would take into account all the changes made to history and not give preference to any one of them. Barry has not time travelled between flashpoint and crossover, which means that timeline which he returns to after flashpoint and the timeline in the crossover has to be same. Hence, Barry returned to the timeline where Stein's daugther exists. Hence, Barry returned to the timeline BY.
And so, I conclude that Barry would not remember Stein's daughter and Stein would not remember Barry mentioning Julian Albert.