You Know What Pisses Me Off
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topper24hours — 9 years ago(September 24, 2016 07:15 PM)
Lol, ok- I'll bite.
I'll take a genuine stab at it
I doubt I'll get anywhere with you if me making VERY clear statements describing how Mazikeen for example is a strong, ferocious, warrior of a bodyguard, w/ a horrific disfigured face in the source material, yet is a sexy, bland, stripper/bartender stereotype female in the show and that saddens and annoys me somehow comes off to you as "difficult to understand" or "incomplete sentences" or whatever your fictional problem was but here goes nothing:
Ok 1st- some background; the character of Lucifer Morningstar was created by author, Neil Gaiman. He is one of the most well known, admired, and prolific writers of this modern era. I'd say he's up there with J.K. Rowling and Stephen King. He has won some prestigious awards and medals, including: the Hugo, Nebula, and Bram Stoker awards.. and the Newberry and Carnegie medals (setting a record of the only author to ever win both medals for the same work). You don't seem like the "reading type", so I'm probably losing you
However, one of his books became Phil Knight's (the Nike founder) Laika film company's 1st foray into stop motion with "Coraline", which was well received. Also, his fantasy novel, "Stardust" became a film in 2007, starring Claire Danes, Michelle Pfeiffer, and Robert DeNiro.
At any rate. I would hope that we (if on nothing else) could agree that he is an author of quite some pedigree. In his most revered work: the comic book "Sandman" (widely recognized as the best and most successful American adult comic book, of all time), he created the character. Lucifer was SO interesting and such a fantastic spin on the "devil", that everyone cried for more!
The mantle was picked up by a superlatively creative Brit, by the name of Mike Carey.
Almost unbelievably, he spun a tale that was EXACTLY the same length of Gaiman's original seminal masterpiece. It was stellar. Seventy-five issues, at one per month, made this a 6+ year labor of love. It was so incredibly clever, the way small characters later play larger roles, how everything connected together so fluidly. It was a joy to read.
Understandably, I was ECSTATIC that such a phenomenal character was getting a TV series!!!!
Oooooh, what storyline?? Him abandoning hell? Losing his wings? His battles with Fenris, eater of worlds? His reluctance to do a favor for Heaven, that he simply MUST accept, because God lets him "name his price?". Honestly, I didn't care. They are ALL good!!!! WHAT A CHARACTER!!!! Strong. Savage. Impossibly clever. Old as time sees the big picture. Humans are tools to manipulate in his brilliant schemes and mechanations. Super fun character!
Soooooooo nothing even REMOTELY like the character in the show. The show's Lucifer is a "frat boy", somehow being alive for eons hasn't made him clever or caught up in grand schemes. Nope. He (like a frat boy but with an uber "creeper" vibe), he thinks only with his penis, and in no way seems like a powerful angel. Simply a creepy perv. Of the three or four episodes I shuddered through, hoping it would get better- I only saw lame clip after lame clip of BEYOND cheesy "quips" and one-liners. Usually accentuated with weird little moans in his speech, and not even like in clever or classy or appropriate times. Just rando stuff like if a female would say like: "we need to get down to business", his response might be: "oooooooooooh, slow moaning of word in creepy manner, raise of eyebrows in suggestive manner, we could DEFINITELY get down to business. the business of sleeping together. Mmmmmmmmmm one last creepy moan-word.
Ummm. WTF??????!!!!!
This is not MY Lucifer. This is not THE Lucifer.
This is painful to hear and/or watch. Drivel.
I've never watched Dawson's Creek, but apparently it was NOT the experience this writer needed to bring an amazing character like Lucifer from comic to television!
This show is really, really, really, really, really bad.
I was honestly worried that I was losing my mind when I saw it had decent ratings on IMDb. However, when I clicked the 1st critic review (New York Times - http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/25/arts/television/review-on-lucifer-a-fox-drama-the-devil-tries-to-fit-in.html), my faith was restored!
Seems like those with actual critical thinking skills similarly despised this garbage they didn't even need something epic to compare it to, to hate it!
It's only a huge group of sad, sad sacks that apparently have no ability to even conceive of anything better than this absolute horrendous garbage that are eating it up. It does make me sad sad that these type of TERRIBLE shows can proliferate, because nobody demands quality. The cattle are satisfied. They chew this nasty cud, ignorantly and happily.
I hope this helps. -
centrd — 9 years ago(September 24, 2016 08:59 PM)
Most people here know about Neil Gaiman and some of us are well versed in his graphic novels and literary works. As well as Mike Carey's adaptation of Lucifer, and now Holly Black's.
Interestingly, Neil is a huge supporter of the show. He gets it, just like Mike Carey gets it, as stated in interviews.
It's too bad that you are blinded to the quality that's actually in this show because your expectations are not being met.
Regardless, it doesn't really matter. You're not going to change the opinions of the 7 million people, as well as the other writers and industry people who think it's a really well-done show, by ranting, belittling others and trying to show off your superior taste in comics. It just doesn't work that way, so I'm not really sure what you get out of it. Venting, I guess?
Also not sure what the Dawson's Creek problem is. Tom Kapinos also wrote Californication. Television writers write for all kinds of genres. And as teen genres go, Dawson's Creek was pretty well done. And it doesn't really matter because they're two totally different animals.
I could go on about how females are represented in this show as well, but it's already been discussed. You can look for it if you really want to hear another point of view on that topic.
Anyway, I appreciate you attempt at supporting your position and the slightly less hostile tone. Progress, I guess.
Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. Vincent Van Gogh -
centrd — 9 years ago(September 24, 2016 09:07 PM)
Oh also, Tom K was the creator of the concept. He only wrote the pilot. The Lucifer writers group take turns sharing writing credits on the rest of the episodes.
As for reviews. Those have changed considerably since those first ones that came out. The early reviewers succumbed to the hipster law of condescension before actually watching or understanding what the show was about. So there are many positive reviews and comic book podcasters that are fully onboard now. You might want to check them out.
Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. Vincent Van Gogh -
readerf61 — 9 years ago(September 24, 2016 09:13 PM)
I'm surprised he never won an award for his scripts. I think The Doctor's Wife is one of my very favorite Doctor Who episodes.
I can understand your disappointment, but every beloved "source material" of mine that's been made into a movie or tv show, completely messes it up. Wait, I lie. Catch 22 and Slaughterhouse 5 are nearly perfect. But that was a long time ago. i think there is a (mis)conception now, that people don't want to see what they've read, or that people who haven't read it won't "get" it.
Railing against us, the fans of this show, will not change things. You must take it up with the network executives.
And Constantine wasn't that close to the source, either. It didn't help that the decision was made to show the episodes out of order, either. So, Constantine lost the comics' fans and the regular viewers that just got lost. Pity. -
topper24hours — 9 years ago(September 25, 2016 05:42 AM)
I appreciate the comments.
I must disagree with Constantine!
After the garbage film, the show was polar opposite he was Brit; he was a bastard didn't drive or use guns.
All four of those were messed up in the movie.
I thought it was a SPLENDID adaptation very true to roots. -
readerf61 — 9 years ago(September 30, 2016 11:03 AM)
I liked Constantine. But the comments from the comic readers.and I have to tell you, I'm almost embarrassed to write this.they were furious that he wasn't allowed to smoke on network tv. Even when a thread had nothing to do with that missing aspect from the comics, someone would bring it up.
So, much better than the movie, but still failed to satisfy a loud and vocal portion of the comic book readers. -
crusojalewhistef — 9 years ago(September 25, 2016 11:49 PM)
I somewhat understand your criticism. Maybe it helps that I'm not into comics but that certainly doesn't mean that I'm part of "cattle" I know exactly what I'm watching. This isnt Wishbone Magic School Bus or (if you want to use an adult show) Family Guy.
I know that Lucifer is supposed to be this extremely ruthless guy who doesn't care about humanity at all but that's just not how I see him (or wish to at least because I'm more pessimistic) I don't like nicey nice characters either though and I see Lucifer as someone who has layers (like Dr. House) and that's what Tom Ellis is demonstrating to me. He's not really evil but he's not angelic either. He certainly could be evil if he wanted to but he just doesn't want to beat least not to the innocent ones.
Yes he is dirty in this but not seeing the problem with that. I know this is supposed to be based on the comic (so the comic might not have that I'm guessing) but it appears to be also going off the less outlandish parts of biblical mythology and that would make sense as that is Lucifer's first origin. In the bible, premarital sex is a sin so it would stand to reason that Lucifer would be into that. Also sex is just one aspect. Lucifer so far hasn't killed anyone but he HAS done some significant damage. I would say throwing a guy out of a window the way he did was powerful. He could kill someone if he wanted to but the thing is he doesn't have to. All he has to do is look at them with red eyes and they're a complete puddle (which the red eyes do look cheesy but it would be difficult to make eyes in a live action series that would look scary enough but I can imagine they look a lot different to the person than to us the viewers) so I would say that's powerful and he was certainly not thinking with his other head when he scared that bully kid (nor was he when he saved Chloe's daughter because he had already seen Chloe naked and refused) How many creatures can make someone feel vulnerable just with their eyes? I know this seems like more of a meer party trick but the fact that he can get people to say their biggest desire no matter who they are shows that Lucifer can manipulate people how he wants to. Also there is no challenge to killing someone. They'd just get sent to hell and he is not in hell on here so why would that be any fun for him? He has tortured the ones who deserved it on this series.
Yes in the latest episodes he has been vulnerable but you wouldn't expect the devil to be vulnerable by anything and that is the appeal for the viewers. A lot of us find it intriguing that a certain woman can make the devil vulnerable so it adds an unpredictable nature. There must be something special about her that would do that and am excited to find what that is.
Superman had a weakness. Even some of the Greek gods in mythology had significant flaws so why can't Lucifer have a weakness?
As far as Mazikeen, I don't see bland but we will agree to disagree. I can see why you would say she is "sexy" and it is probably a cheap shot to appeal to viewers but it doesn't have to be that way. I think sexy can be a representation of a ferocious being because it can hypnotize the men she is going to attack and the other women can feel threatened by her appearance.
I try to live without regret but I'm about to break a sweat. -
kurt-2000 — 9 years ago(September 26, 2016 03:30 AM)
I know that Lucifer is supposed to be this extremely ruthless guy who doesn't care about humanity at all
Lucifer/Satan from the Christian Bible is the essence of all evil and total chaos. Not some"guy". Only comic book idiots would be interested in exploring the 'softer side of Satan'.
but that's just not how I see him (or wish to at least because I'm more pessimistic)
or more 'atheistic' perhaps was the word you were looking for?
I don't like nicey nice characters either though and I see Lucifer as someone who has layers (like Dr. House) and that's what Tom Ellis is demonstrating to me.
Which is kind of like saying: 'I'd like to explore the various shades of grey regarding child molestation.' Some people see Lucifer as the essence of evil. They just haven't bothered to show up on this message board in large numbers.
How many creatures can make someone feel vulnerable just with their eyes?
A cougar watching a jogger go by on the road.
Even some of the Greek gods in mythology had significant flaws so why can't Lucifer have a weakness?
Newsflash: a very large percentage of people in America believe in God and support the Bible, which is why many people see this show as stupid on an epic level. I personally just see it as junk food for the brain.
I think sexy can be a representation of a ferocious being because it can hypnotize the men she is going to attack and the other women can feel threatened by her appearance.
Women in these cheesecake roles aren't a threat except to their own careers. They're just seen as television's version of pole dancers. Can't get an honest job? hello? -
crusojalewhistef — 9 years ago(September 29, 2016 07:55 PM)
or more 'atheistic' perhaps was the word you were looking for?
Not in this sense. I was just saying I can't necessarily believe my envision because of my extreme pessimistic side so that's just how I'd wish to see him.
Newsflash: a very large percentage of people in America believe in God and support the Bible, which is why many people see this show as stupid on an epic level.
Right but from what I see most of the bible is essentially ancient toilet paper. It's not even junk food for the brain to me it's just plain junk that has no entertainment value (but I have researched specific passages to be informed enough to gain perspective). Of course I am an admirer of a musician who used to be devout so I have no problem with religious people but the concept has a lot of holes so I'm not worried about the zealots which is the only people who would find this show to be "stupid on an epic level" to the point they would be offended.
Some things make sense but a lot of it is utter tripe at best inhuman at worst (for example in the bible the punishment for rapists is to marry the one they raped) so while those people see Lucifer as the essence of evil I see their representation of god as the bad guy and Lucifer as the good (but not too good) guy. Of course I am strictly talking about their representation as I would like to envision neither one as a bad guy if they were real beings.
I try to live without regret but I'm about to break a sweat. -
kurt-2000 — 9 years ago(September 30, 2016 07:14 AM)
from what I see most of the bible is essentially ancient toilet paper.
Ouch. I can't say I'm a Christian or worthy of being called one, but even that was painful to read. And the board was previously discussing why some evangelicals took offense? lol
I'm not worried about the zealots which is the only people who would find this show to be "stupid on an epic level" to the point they would be offended.
Not that it's extremely important in context to this viewpoint exchange here, but the "zealots" are getting dangerously close to giving Trump a victory. Just an observation: Some zealots are of the opinion that networks like Fox entertainment should have their broadcasting licenses yanked. And Trump hates the media with a passion. Just thought I'd toss that out there as a side bar issue. -
topper24hours — 9 years ago(September 26, 2016 07:04 AM)
I highly appreciate and respect this post!
I do "get it" to you, Lucifer is kinda the equivalent of a popcorn flick.
I regret lashing out at you over MY frustration.
Please understand: I wouldn't mind a different bent w/ Lucifer, and sex bothers me not at all!!
It's his "caring" so much about petty earthly squabbles and the cheesy dialogue that killed it for me. oh, and the "need" to spin it into a procedural cop drama. I find that insulting!
Here is my issue at it's heart and why I found myself so aggressively irritated with you and other staunch supporters:
I absolutely LOVE the character Lucifer!
I used to chat with Mike Carey on the old Vertigo message boards, as it was being written. (what a rush!! he'd drop hints like mad).
Like w/ Constantine- when a poor adaptation is made; if it is NOT met with acclaim, you may see a much better version in time.
So.. when this came out and was NOT a good adaptation (though I understand, on its own- you like it: I'm trying to stay away from insults), I hoped everyone would hate it and I'd see the REAL Lucifer in a few years!!!
As it stands, because rakish buddy cop Lucifer is "good enough"; I will likely NEVER see the version of Lucifer I desire to see.
And THAT is the source of my angst!!!
I guess I just wish so much you all could experience the character as I have. one of the deepest, most interesting, multilayered antiheros of all time.
I'm at issue 9 of the new continuation of the story- which begins with him teaming up with Raphael, the cast down angel, to find God's murderer.
Yup. God's dead! Issue #1. It's VERY exciting and I'm trying to just find comfort in that.
Apologies again for making you the brunt of my personal "vendetta" against this show, lol.
Cheers. -
centrd — 9 years ago(September 26, 2016 07:58 AM)
I think you're wrong. I think the popularity of this character and the fact the show didn't get pushed off tv despite all the protests, shows that interest in the character is growing. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if we don't get more Lucifer rather than less.
The Devil's an archetype and Gaiman/Carey's version of a different Lucifer is iconic, and because of that, there will be many adaptations of his story (just like vampires) based on this new version of the devil. Once an idea is accepted into the mainstream it becomes more prevalent. That's why the fundamentalists are freaking out. They think it will make people sympathize with evil even though that was never the intention with this character. But the floodgates have been opened with this show and I'd bet money that you will be seeing more sympathetic devil characters on your screen from here on out. It's a very compelling notion, that the devil is misunderstood, or that his image has been bastardized and that he has been villified for every evil in the book, when all that really happened was he had a disagreement with his father about free will.
It's easy to see why Satan worship sprang up because of the distorted version of the devil that was preached to people. If people had just been more true to the Satan(s) described in the bible instead of creating this demon monster, I doubt Satanism would have ever been born. But that's what happens when extremism occurs. The other extreme is created as well.
Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. Vincent Van Gogh -
kurt-2000 — 9 years ago(September 26, 2016 09:09 AM)
I think the popularity of this character and the fact the show didn't get pushed off tv despite all the protests, shows that interest in the character is growing. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if we don't get more Lucifer rather than less.
lol
Yahoo.com weighs in:
"The most obnoxious show of the new year thus far, Lucifer traduces the character created by Neil Gaiman and developed by writer Mike Carey in the Lucifer comic-book series. The drama, premiering Monday on Fox, turns him into a smug twerp who delights in humiliating many perfectly nice, ordinary people as well as the bad guys he catches as an aide to a cop.
The opening scene, traditionally designed to introduce us to the main character and the tone of the show, does its job well. Lucifer Morningstar, played by Tom Ellis complete with fashionable stubble and snooty British accent, is a fallen angel tooling around Los Angeles in sporty car. He gets pulled over for speeding and we get a taste of Lucifers special power: he can get people to reveal their forbidden desires. In this case, he manipulates an honest cop just doing his job to look as though hes a dope whos eager to take a bribe from our supposed hero. Yeah, that really makes me really want to root for this guy as our protagonist.
Things get immediately worse. Lucifer teams up with a cop played by Lauren German to solve a murder because I dont know, I guess Lucifer has nothing better to do than try and fit into the mold of Foxs quirky-crime-solvers-paired-together shows (Bones, Sleepy Hollow, Lie To Me, Fringe, etc.). Germans Det. Chloe Decker has her own unique (non-)power: shes immune to Lucifers truth-eliciting powers.
Throughout, the dialogue is studded with lines that are variations on things youve heard and read in hundreds of devil-or-angel-on-Earth TV shows, movies, and books. Lucifer actually says, The devil made you do it. And when a priest crosses himself, Lucifer says sarcastically, Yeah, good luck with that, Father, and while youre at it, say Hi for me.
D.B. Woodside appears a couple of times as a fellow-devil who has to talk in a low, menacing voice at all times. Ill bet he, like the rest of us, didnt have to hang around listening to this devilish bore." -
topper24hours — 9 years ago(September 26, 2016 10:49 AM)
While I appreciate the encouraging words
Lol, I don't want "another" Lucifer character damnit!!
I want the EXACT one I fell in love with. brought to the small screen.
So far- the most "pure" adaptation of a comic I've ever seen was Sin City.
Holy crap! If I saw a Lucifer movie/show that true to roots, I'd nerdgasm.
I guess the best I can hope for is that this has another decent season then begins to wane- but having made enough of a stir that it is looked at hard in making a true adaptation.
As far as D.C. goes; I think their "kiddie" shoes are crap (flash, arrow, etc.), but when they get "gritty", they are AMAZE (Gotham, Constantine).
I want to see a dark version of Lucifer. -
centrd — 9 years ago(September 26, 2016 11:39 AM)
But my point is, the first screen depiction of Frankenstein's monster has adapted over time as the character captured audience's imagination. Dracula has changed as well. For better and worse depending on the depiction.
And the same will happen with Lucifer. Until eventually, you'll probably see some version close to your idea of perfection.
Although, the critics didn't agree with your assessment of the ones you think were done well. Constantine was not well received, and Gotham has mixed reviews at best. I watched the first season of Gotham and it just got way too repetitive and boring for me, although the visuals are great. But it's too one note, too action based, imo. Others love it, I'm sure. Also, Gotham is a new concept, not based on one single comic, so it's not exactly a fair comparison. I didn't watch Constantine. Wish I had but I'm not going to set myself up for disappointment now that it was cancelled.
I'm a huge fan of the Lucifer and Sandman comics, and I'm a huge fan of the show. I'd like to see that version, too, although realistically, a carbon copy is never going to happen. That's not creative or fun and anybody who would agree to do such a thing wouldn't have a creative bone in their body. So if it's going to be done by someone talented, then it's going to have at least some differences. You just have to stop getting hung up on the superficial.
Even Mike Carey applauded the evolution of the Lucifer character. He said he appreciated Neil's support of the new direction he took Lucifer when he took over the reins, and he's now just as supportive of both Holly Black and the show's writers. He talked about how that's the nature of the genre, that it evolves depending on who's creating it. And Neil has made it more than clear that he's a fan of the show. It's not "a story", it's the truth.
Too bad you can't see what Lucifer's own creators see. But that's okay. I just don't understand why you waste your time trying to tell us not to like what we like.
Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. Vincent Van Gogh -
kurt-2000 — 9 years ago(September 26, 2016 12:00 PM)
I'm a huge fan of the Lucifer and Sandman comics, and I'm a huge fan of the show.
We hadn't noticed
Most of the support threads on the board were started by you. Guess you're on Satan's payroll?
Too bad you can't see what Lucifer's own creators see.
Dollar signs from cheap thrills?
I just don't understand why you waste your time trying to tell us not to like what we like.
I'm the same way when I see people pollute the streets with garbage, pollute the rivers and pollute minds. Force of habit I guess. -
crusojalewhistef — 9 years ago(September 29, 2016 07:51 PM)
I think I can actually kinda relate. It's basically like how I don't like anyone covering the song Time After Time. To me that song is iconic but I ignore the covers because I know that's just how I see it and I wouldn't want anyone bashing a cover that I actually like.
I'm sure people said the same thing about Dean Cain in New Adventures of Superman. He's too watered down cheesy etc But to me he was THE Superman. When you become used to a certain version that is what you want to see so I didn't care if anyone else saw it that way though at the same time it does get old after a while when people bash on my favs (TV shows musical artists etc). It'd be one thing if it was something I enjoyed that I know doesn't really have substance (i.e. if we were talking about Scream Queens I would see your point. This is miles away from Scream Queens to me) There are going to be so many adaptations of popular comic books or mythological figures.
At least you were pretty respectful. I went through far worse a few years ago on a board and of course this is towards an actual human being but I guess since he was a "celebrity" it was okay to bash him like that. Theater snobs are far worse than comic book stans.
If you want the one that you fell in love with, maybe you can send in a screenplay to some TV execs or if that's too big you can always make a YouTube video. I know it would be a difficult task to complete esp if you're aiming for popularity but whenever I feel like something is missing/not right from a TV show I will write a fanfic or make a video montage.
I try to live without regret but I'm about to break a sweat. -
kurt-2000 — 9 years ago(September 25, 2016 11:50 AM)
with specific criticism
Do I really need to post more YouTube links with clips from this series, Barb?
Tom Ellis plays a flakey devil who makes lame jokes, acts like a ladies man, and pretends to have morals under a tough exterior. It's so crappy, I'm sure someone at the production company found a rejected story outline sitting in a dusty box stating, 'ABC Entertainment Pilot: 1979 Season'
They went with 'Supertrain' instead. -
jncarriere — 9 years ago(September 24, 2016 09:05 PM)
I can sum up what he's trying to say in one word "Integrity" and without being rude. I'm not defending him,but he does have a valid point in the "comic" sense.. This is basically just another (in a long line of)original comic book characters that are getting butchered.
They killed The Black Canary on Arrow for a bunch of freaking shippers. I digress, in a hardcore comic book fans eyes. The absolute worse thing you can do, is make a mockery of a comic character as HUGE as Lucifer or Batman or Superman or Green Lantern or The Flash. I hated the last X Men and I hated what they have done to Arrow.
Van Helsing is a graphic novel and I had really high hopes.First episode not so good,second episode a little better. It's like all the show runners,creative teams want to cash in on comic characters,but they wont stick close enough to the source material and or go completely in another direction.So I made a decision, to see the characters as two completely different renditions. I love this version of Lucifer and Tom Ellis is killing it.
Allan Moore is one of THE most famous comic writers. Constantine is an amazing character and I watched the show,but it was hit and miss. I still haven't watched Suicide Squad, in fear that they butchered Harley Quinn(Paul Dini) "Joker's Favor" (absolute favorite) and Deadshot.
Non comic book readers and casual comic fans will be satisfied,but the hardcore comic fans will chew them up and spit them out,much like Allan Moore who hates Hollywood. That is all I will say about comic book fans and Lucifer as a character within the comic verse.
imperfection is an altogether attainable human goal, and love is acceptance of imperfections.