It's been over ten years, and they still can't beat The Animated Series
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comicstu — 17 years ago(July 23, 2008 08:13 PM)
Yeah, I do seem to not like those anti-corporation messages or whatever, but that's mainly because they're done so poorly, I guess. I'm pretty sure there are a few more down the road with similar themes that I really enjoy. 'Feat of Clay' was one of them.
But yeah, thanks for reading it even if you disagree with a lot of it; must have been a lot of reading.
You also have to know that I've been a B:TAS fan since I was six years old and it is forever one of my most beloved series, but sometime objectivity has to get in the way of nostalgia for me. -
fdpedro — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 12:49 PM)
Really? I thought it was a SEVERE step down, from the horrible redesigns (except Scarecrow), to the reduced running time, to the absurd ammount of unnecessary action sequences that add nothing to the episode, and of course to the complete lack of non-supervillain episodes which were some of my favorites of the original series (I Am The Night, POV, Paging the Crime Doctor, etc). It had some good episodes, but no excellent episodes, at least none that compare to the best of B:TAS.
However, I'd rather watch that than The Batman, or Batman Beyond. -
comicstu — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 01:52 PM)
Well I for one enjoyed the redesigns, and I felt the animation was a HUGE step up from the original series. There were a lot more episodes animated by good studios. I know what you mean about the non-suervillain episodes, but to be honest I found a lot of those in B:TAS a bit overrated (although there are a few I LOVE, like 'A Bullet For Bullock' and 'Beware the Gray Ghost').
Still, I thought episodes like 'Growing Pains' and 'Over the Edge' are easily comparable to the best of B:TAS, and there were plenty of other great episodes like 'Never Fear' and 'Legends of the Dark Knight', and there were no episodes as bad as the worst of B:TAS.
And for the record, I really like 'Batman Beyond' too. -
fdpedro — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 06:16 PM)
I agree the animation was more consistant, but I far prefer the animation from the original series, even at its worst, mainly because of my distaste for the redesigns. Batman looks so stiff and ugly in TNBA as if he was drawn with a ruler, Robin is impossible to take seriously, the Joker looks like an Animaniac, and don't get me started on the women (Catwoman and Poison Ivy ugh).
I liked how the original series took its time and the characters moved slowly (For example, in Trial, we see Bruce Wayne grab a chair and sit on it during a restaurant scene). In TNBA, everything moves so fast and like I said, the increase in action sequences and violence took precious story telling time away.
Growing Pains is good bur I can never rate it next to the best of B:TAS due to my extreme dislike of the Tim Drake/Robin design.
Over the Edge is very overrated. It's a good episode, but the terrible "it's all a dream" ending brings it down so hard. Perchance to Dream and For the Man Who Had Everything (JLU) are far superior similar episodes.
Never Fear perhaps the very best episode of TNBA. Very good and The Scarecrow is excellent, sadly there's the Robin redesign again.
Mad Love would have been fantastic in BTAS, sadly I have to endure the Jopker redesign from TNBA.
Legends of the Dark Knight was sooooo good and had potential to be worthy of being a B:TAS episode, sadly the lame Firefly/Batman confrontation at the end spoiled it. Why couldn't they do a Bob Kane (or a Neil Adams) segment instead and for once not have us look at the horrible new Batman design?
I think a good example of everything that is wrong with TNBA is in Mean Seasons. Great potential, great villain (an improvement from her comic book character Calendar Man). It would have been a fantastic BTAS episode but hey its TNBA. Let's give Calendar Girl muscular men with tights as her henchmen (reminds me of Mr. Freeze and His Freezettes), let's add these extreme fast action sequences that add nothing to the narrative such as a battle with a T-Rex robot, and let's have Batman working with a partner even knowing this could have perfectly been a solo mission.
And I really disagree on no worse episodes than the worst of B:TAS I'd much rather watch Moon of the Wolf than Love is a Croc, Torch Song (poor Firefly), or Critters.
Batman Beyond (except for Meltdown and Out of the Past) is the only Timm/Dini show I just plain don't like. I find it sick as it completely destroyed everything I love about the Batman universe. But that's a different story. -
comicstu — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 07:00 PM)
Well, I personally love a lot of the redesigns and they in no way detract from the realism of the series for me. I have no problem with the Robin redesign and I think it's a lot easier to take Batman and Bruce Wayne seriously in their new looks: Batman looks more intimidating and Bruce Wayne looks more sophisticated.
The animation in 'Growing Pains' and 'Over the Edge' is probably better than the animation in any B:TAS episode, and the 'it's only a dream ending' I felt was necessary, but it also didn't feel like a copout in that we got to see Barbara reconcile everything with her father at the end of the episode.
I agree about the Joker redesign, but I didn't mind it in some of the better episodes.
I think that 'Legends of the Dark Knight' needed the third segment with the regular Batman because it was supposed to show that the Batman of the current series is an amalgamation of the different Batman interpretations that have come before. I thought it worked perfectly.
And I'd much rather watch 'Love is a Croc', 'Torch Song', and even 'Critters' than 'Moon of the Wolf', 'Cat Scratch Fever', or 'I've Got Batman in My Basement'.
I really like 'Batman Beyond'. It did a great job of showing the evolution of Bruce Wayne, featured some great action scenes, had beautiful background art, and was overall a very solid series. -
frostorm — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 09:32 PM)
I agree with you, comicstu. I prefer the redesigns of TNBA myself where Bruce Wayne looks more the part of a sophisticated billionaire than he ever did in BTAS and the Robin design wasn't a problem I guess because I'm a Tim Drake fan anyway.
Love Is A Croc & The Demon Within had impressive animation to me. Some of the earlier eps from BTAS are pretty harsh to watch if not for the Fleischer-esque lighting. No stretch a loss to view but the revamps seemed to be warranted & are an improvement. I loved them right away when they aired on tv way back.
Still both segments combined are a great series.
"I can't believe that Bryce prefers Van Patten's card to mine" -
fdpedro — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 09:54 PM)
Growing Pains and Over the Edge might have excellent animation, but its wonderful animation on something that I find ugly. I'd much rather watch Beware the Grey Ghost or Heart of Ice, which I find far better achievements artistically. The cinematic aspect of BTAS (mostly the film noir lightening) was lost on TNBA.
I understand what they were trying to do with the "regular" Batman segment in Legends of the Dark Knight, but the first two segments are so awesome and all the "regular" Batman does is fight Firefly in an abandoned movie theater? The commentary track itself states this main flaw (Timm suggests they should have dione a Neil Adams segment, but it would have been too hard to animate).
The it's only a dream ending did feel like a major cop-out to me, especially considering Barbara wasn't even active in her own dream.
I am a Tim Drake fan too (my favorite Robin) so I was even more disappointed at his design when I first saw it. Actually, I couldn't believe my eyes when I first saw the redesigns of TNBA. When the first episode popped up I thought it was some sort of joke. The Bruce Wayne redesign itself didn't work for me at all. The new suit is fine (I agree, more sophisticated) but the new face they gave him was so bland, not to mention he looks way too young. -
comicstu — 17 years ago(July 25, 2008 10:38 AM)
Well, I don't see how anything about 'Over the Edge' or 'Growing Pains' qualifies as ugly, but that's your personal preference and not really a criticism of the actual merit of the designs. And as cinematic as 'Heart of Ice' or 'Beware the Gray Ghost' were, those two TNBA episodes still have far better action and far more fluid animation.
I felt that the fact that it was Barbara's dream gave huge insight into her psyche, so I liked it a lot.
I still don't get the issue with Tim Drake's design. He looks like a kid and he looks like Robin. That's good enough for me. And I also thought that Bruce's new face gave him more overall expression than his overly detailed B:TAS face that too often yielded blank expressions. And he looked just as old as he did in B:TAS too.
As for 'Legends of the Dark Knight', I still think that showing the regular Batman in action was the only way to provide closure. There would have been no real resolution if we just saw yet another interpretation. With only two stories, we get two complete contrasts, making the final fight with the regular Batman that much more effective. -
fdpedro — 17 years ago(July 25, 2008 01:38 PM)
Yes, it's my personal preference. The designs are what they are, if Timm received a message from the Gods saying the Joker needed to lose his lips and have black eyeballs, that's fine. But I still find them ugly. Why on Earth did they give Nightwing a mullet?
Do you honestly find those TNBA episodes better than Heart of Ice or Gray Ghost?
They might have far more action but IMO that is not a good thing at all. Would Heart of Ice be better if Batman had a fight with polar bears inside an ice grinding machine in Freeze's hideout (which I guess would have happened if it was TNBA). I'd much rather have dark cinematic of BTAS. Once again, look at the T-Rex fight in Mean Seasons. It might be good on its own, but it adds nothing to the episode's narrative.
And once again, I understood the purpose of showing the regular Batman in LOTDK, but did we have to see him fight one of the lamest villains of the series in a movie theater as a representation? -
comicstu — 17 years ago(July 25, 2008 03:14 PM)
Well to be honest I don't think that they can top 'Gray Ghost', as that's my favorite episode in probably the entire DCAU, but I think they do rival 'Heart of Ice'.
I don't think that the action in those episodes is a bad thing either though. It was exciting, well animated, wasn't overbearing, and didn't detract from the plot. And personally, I thought that, even though it lacked the film noir atmosphere of most B:TAS episodes, 'Growing Pains' was very cinematic.
As for 'Mean Seasons', I felt that the dinosaur fight was fun and very good on the eyes. In fact, I like 'Mean Seasons' because of the animation and don't really pay much attention to the story.
And I think that Firefly was a good throw away villain for him to fight; a more renowned villain would have probably detracted from Batman himself. And I think the movie theater was a really cool setting. -
fdpedro — 17 years ago(July 25, 2008 10:04 PM)
The story of Mean Seasons is a very good commentary on the modeling business IMO, with a rather tragic twist ending regarding Calendar Girl's face.
Firefly was destroyed in this series IMO. Amazing how they improved some average viollains yet made interesting ones so lame. -
cheekymonkey67 — 17 years ago(August 09, 2008 04:45 PM)
I'd have to agree with you. While it was interesting to see the different interpretations of the directors I am not the biggest anime fan and that is clearly what this movie is. The big draw, for me, about Batman has always been his gadgets and ingenuity. There were virtually none of them used in this movie and the stiff jaw talking of the characters, prevalent in anime, leaves me feeling like I am watching Pokemon or any of the far too many what-ever-mons. This is worth a look but die-hard Batman fans may be in for a disappointment.
Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too. - Voltaire -
jmmycsnv — 16 years ago(June 13, 2009 11:03 AM)
I wish Warner Bros would continue on delivering more Batman, at the quality of the Animated series, though I will say this movie is one of the better animated features they have released related to DC in a good awhile.
"This city deserves a better class of criminal and I'm gonna give it to them."