It seems that I hear this idea perpetuated quite frequently these days, whether it's coming from Jenna Jameson or the re
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Jenna Jameson
PhillyV49 — 11 years ago(September 21, 2014 12:37 AM)
It seems that I hear this idea perpetuated quite frequently these days, whether it's coming from Jenna Jameson or the recently outed Duke University porn star, Belle Knox. Women like these love to claim to be feminists who think it is an empowering act to have sex for money on camera and honestly, I must say, my B.S. detector goes crazy every time I hear this kind of talk.
Do these women not know how men think? Are these women completely unaware of what goes on in the mind of a man when he watches porn? Allow me to shed some light on this, for those of you who have been living under a rock your entire lives; when a man watches porn, he's not thinking to himself: "Oh, wow, look at how well this woman is orally pleasing that guy. I have so much respect for her right now." This, rather, is much closer to the truth: "That's it, sweetheart, choke on that dick and swallow that beep cu2000m like the little whore that you are." By the way, yes, I include myself in this category, so there is no reason to assume that I'm taking some kind of moral high ground - I am not. However, since I know that it is wrong to do this, I have been watching much less porn as of late, slowly kicking the habit until I simply don't care about it any more.
The point I'm making is this: if that is what's going on in the minds of all men who watch porn, then how can these women possibly be empowering themselves? It doesn't make one damn bit of sense. There is no logic to it whatsoever. The only argument that these women seem to be clinging to is that for so long in patriarchal societies, female sexual expression was considered taboo, so the fact that they can now express themselves sexually in public and have it be generally accepted by society, is liberating. This concept alone is not flawed, but unfortunately, there is one very important detail female porn stars are ignoring - they are getting paid to have sex.
That's right - they collect a paycheck for having sex; they have sex for material gain. This is the dictionary definition of a prostitute; a whore. By the way, this applies to male porn stars as well; whether you are a man or a woman, if you get paid money to have sex, you are a whore. If only these people, especially the women, just admitted that this is what they are, I might actually have a little bit of respect for them. Just be honest with yourselves and don't lie to yourselves like Belle Knox does when she spouts nonsense like, "I'm not selling my body; I'm selling an experience!" No, my dear, stop sugar-coating it and using euphemisms. You are selling your body. That's the whole point. That's why porn exists and that's why men watch it.
The bottom line is that there is no porn industry without the degradation of women; these two things go hand-in-hand and they always will. Wake up, female porn stars. It's time to put an end to your delusional thinking. -
quarrion-1 — 11 years ago(September 21, 2014 05:28 AM)
Women like these love to claim to be feminists who think it is an empowering act to have sex for money on camera ..
Which active porn star since the 90s has ever claimed to be a feminist? That would be a safe career killer these days.
Sure many pioneer porn stars have done that but was when feminism was young and sex-positive (in the original sense, not the modern "infiltrate and destroy" sense). And some retired porn stars joined feminism when they were disappointed with porn even more joined a religious club.
So for starters, I believe your argument is based on nothing. Empowering means something different to everyone.
Do these women not know how men think? Are these women completely unaware of what goes on in the mind of a man when he watches porn?
More interesting that you have such accurate knowledge of the extreme fringe thinking you inscribe to men. I would say that you are either a feminist (who always knew that men eat babies and cut women's breasts off) or a psychopath who in all seriousness believes that men actually consistently believe such things.
That's right - they collect a paycheck for having sex; they have sex for material gain.
Ah and here comes the justification why you think it's ok that you wish to hurt them! They are greedy and slutty and deserve your punishment being bestowed upon them.
And finally:
The point I'm making is this: if that is what's going on in the minds of all men who watch porn, then how can these women possibly be empowering themselves?
The questions answers itself very directly. With the wrong presumption gone, it is easy to answer -
jp3183 — 11 years ago(September 21, 2014 11:17 AM)
when a man watches porn, he's not tda0hinking to himself: "Oh, wow, look at how well this woman is orally pleasing that guy. I have so much respect for her right now..By the way, yes, I include myself in this category..If only these people, especially the women, just admitted that this is what they are, I might actually have a little bit of respect for them."
LMAO! No, you won't. By your own admission, this is what you'll most likely think: "That's it, sweetheart, choke on that dick and swallow that beep cum like the little whore that you are." In other words, if you have no respect for what they do, then why in the crap do you even care about what they think in the first place? Not all pornstars think this way. Each one has a different experience than the other. Especially since you made it specific to scenes involving a penis. Meaning apparently that if a female pornstar mainly does lesbian scenes, the less of a whore she feels. -
PhillyV49 — 11 years ago(September 21, 2014 05:38 PM)
I admit to being flawed. We men don't think clearly when we need to ejaculate - the need to release those fluids from our bodies often clouds our better judgement.
I don't "Wish to hurt" anybody. Also, it's not necessarily that I care what these perf1c84ormers think, I'm just very interested in it. I find the psychology of people like this fascinating.
Hey quarrion-1, are you implying that most female porn stars today will readily admit to being whores who are degrading themselves? Because I think they would be a little reluctant to do so. -
jp3183 — 11 years ago(September 21, 2014 11:30 PM)
Fascination is different from criticism. Your OP is mainly the latter.
The key in your stance is that whoring is automatically not an empowering thing. Yet you never even explained WHY. Here is where your analysis falls apart:
Do these women not know how men think? Are these women completely unaware of what goes on in the mind of a man when he watches porn?
Your post is about what female pornstars believe, yet you chose to analyze specifically their male audience's minds instead. What makes you think that they give a crap about what you and other men think? The empowerment they speak of does not come from you or any man. It comes from their own satisfaction of using sex for their personal gain (fortune, fame, fantasy, etc).
With a former contract star like Jenna, the psychology is the fact that she got people draining their wallets specifically for her. In this sense, she's the one playing men like puppets just by performing sex acts on camera. No matter what goes through your mind while watching her, she still got you hooked. As by your own admission, women like her fascinate you. But to her, you're just one of many living ATMs who don't even need touching. I've always found it funny that some people think getting paid for sex is more pathetic than actually paying for sex (or, in most cases, paying just to watch sex on video). Talk about being delusional.
But like I said, everyone has a different experience. For example, I got a feeling that most people who criticize Knox's words on Facial Abuse (renamed facef ucking.com) haven't even seen the scene itself and just assume that she didn't get her comeuppance. The goal of that site is the total dehumanization of whores. The male performers fulfill the fantasy of men who yearn to destroy female pornstars' perceived empowerment (perhaps you'll like it). One of the most fascinating episodes is Gina Lynn's, a prime example of a pornstar who has gotten some mainstream exposure and gained many fans. Hence, the guys made sure that she's completely reduced to feeling worse than a common street hooker by the end of the shoot. Yet even though all these performers got paid, which of them constantly get criticized for it? The ones w/ a vagina, of course! Because, apparently, the men who mercilessly smacked them around and pumped their throats full of dick until they cried don't need to be defensive and "delusional" about being paid to do so at all. It's okay to be a whore as long as you have a penis. -
Just_Jenna — 11 years ago(September 26, 2014 06:44 PM)
But to her, you're just one of many living2000 ATMs who don't even need touching.
I'm not so sure about porn empowering women, but do agree that women in this sort of field do tend to get more respect than some people realize.
In the book Nine Lives: From Stripper to School Teacher, Lynn Snowden took on several different jobs and wrote about her different experiences. She was of course a stripper and a school teacher, but she was also a roadie for Skid Row and worked in a factory. I saw her speak a few years ago, and she said something that I always found interesting. In one of her jobs, she worked as a cocktail waitress, and said she actually got more respect when she was a stripper. Being a cocktail waitress was actually far more degrading; the men treated her like a piece of meat, but when she was a stripper they treated her like a goddess.
www.jennamoquin.com -
jp3183 — 11 years ago(September 26, 2014 08:10 PM)
Yup, pretty much the same reason for this woman's success:
http://www.imdb.com/board/20001398/board/nest/233511662 -
quarrion-1 — 11 years ago(September 22, 2014 05:56 AM)
Also, it's not necessarily that I care what these performers think, I'm just very interested in it.
Forgive me but that is a blatant contradiction. Which of the two is it?
And how do you think you could get a consistent answer to this? There perhaps nearly as many reasons and ways of thinking about it as there are porn stars.
Hey quarrion-1, are you implying that most female porn stars today will readily admit to being whores who are degrading themselves?
No the more well known porn stars are pretty professional about it. So they would not admit to being feminists as that would be a big, big buzz killer (unless you are the Ms Lohan of porn, Sierra Sinn and you toggle between being a conservative Christians, a druggo, or doing a 5 guy gangbang). I think most would regard themselves as a form of performer or actor or artist.
Many porn stars refer to themselves as whores (some of my favourites as Stevie or Dana Vespoli have done so) .. but given that 'whore' colloquially not used for a calling but as an invective, most resort to the more harmless credo that they love what they do. Which is pretty much what Belle Knox does very skillfully. -
PhillyV49 — 11 years ago(September 22, 2014 01:35 PM)
"I've always found it funny that some people think getting paid for sex is more pathetic than actually paying for sex (or, in most cases, paying just to watch sex on video). Talk about being delusional."
I wouldn't know - I've never paid for sex or porn. But I agree with the sentiment.
"Yet even though all these performers got paid, which of them constantly get criticized for it? The ones w/ a vagina, of course! Because, apparently, the men who mercilessly smacked them around and pumped their throats full of dick until they cried don't need to be defensive and "delusional" about being paid to do so at all. It's okay to be a whore as long as you have a penis."
You must have missed the part o2000f my post where I specifically say that whether you're a man or a woman, if you get paid to have sex, you are a whore. Skim through it again.
"Forgive me but that is a blatant contradiction. Which of the two is it?"
What I mean to say is that I don't really have an emotional investment in what they think - I just have a desire to understand it.
"I think most would regard themselves as a form of performer or actor or artist."
Performer? Yes. Actor or artist? Please. Don't make me laugh.
" most resort to the more harmless credo that they love what they do. Which is pretty much what Belle Knox does very skillfully."
I'm sure she loves what she does, but just because something makes you feel good, doesn't mean it's good for you - or anyone else. Belle Knox is still lying to herself when she calls what she does an artistic outlet. Porn is not art - never was, never will be. She is sugar coating it. To get paid money to have sex is to be a whore. End of story. Just admit it like other performers.
By the way, I have seen her Facial Abuse video. I don't see why any woman with the slightest amount of self respect would ever participate in something like that. Belle Knox likes to think she's smart just because she's a university student but the truth is, she's a complete idiot and she hasn't the slightest idea of what she's talking about. I'm shocked that her parents haven't yet dragged her kicking and screaming away from the video set. -
jp3183 — 11 years ago(September 22, 2014 10:37 PM)
You must have missed the part of my post where I specifically say that whether you're a man or a woman, if you get paid to have sex, you are a whore. Skim through it again.
No, you just can't read properly. The sentence "It's okay to be a whore as long as you have a penis" does not mean "men are not whores". It means that even though they're also whores, they don't get criticized for it as much as the women. Knox was there for one episode while the men have been there since the site's beginnings. The latter get away w/ everything scot-free, but if the number of appearances were the other way around, a lot more people would bitch even worse about it.
Also, dismissing something as idiotic doesn't result in you understanding it. You need to set aside critical views and actually analyze the reasons for such actions. For example, insb68tead of simply dismissing the notion of porn as an artform, try to actually ask why do some people think it's art, and then share your views on it. As I've said before, "Fascination is different from criticism." -
PhillyV49 — 11 years ago(September 23, 2014 11:31 PM)
My mistake - I thought you were implying that I didn't believe the men are whores too.
"For example, instead of simply dismissing the notion of porn as an artform, try to actually ask why do some people think it's art, and then share your views on it."
No. I have an open mind for a lot of things, but some things are simply not open to interpretation. Porn is not art. Those who say they beb68lieve that it is are just making a convenient excuse for their deviant behaviour. You are either a whore for performing in it or an A-hole for watching it - yes, for a long time, I've been one of these A-holes just like millions of other men. There is nothing artistic about filming people engage in sexually depraved acts. Anybody in the world can do it - that's why it's not art. I cannot emphasize this enough - admit what you are in life. -
jp3183 — 11 years ago(September 24, 2014 09:48 PM)
Again, read carefully. The phrase "why do some people think it's (porn is) art" does not mean "porn could be art". It's just a way to get into the minds of the people you're analyzing. But since you've already made up your mind about how 16d0they think to begin with, then you clearly don't "have a desire to understand it" like you claimed. They're idiots, such fascinating psychology!
All this goes back to a statement in my first reply, but now rephrased:
"if you have no respect for what they do, then why in the crap do you even care about what they think in the first place?" > If you already know about their psychology, then what in the crap are you even looking to understand about it in the first place? -
PhillyV49 — 11 years ago(September 24, 2014 10:47 PM)
I just want to understand why they are content with being whores. Evolution gave us the greatest gift it has ever given any species - a big brain, with the potential to achieve such amazing things. To spend your life sucking dick on camera is completely wasting that potential. It's the lazy, easy way out. Are they truly happy with that being their legacy? If so, it is pathetic. It's not like they're contributing anything meaningful to civilization. The world would function perfectly well without porn.
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jp3183 — 11 years ago(September 25, 2014 10:41 PM)
I just want to understand why they are content with being whores.
"(fortune, fame, fantasy, etc)"
Evolution gave us the greatest gift it has ever given any species - a big brain, with the potential to achieve such amazing things. To spend your life sucking dick on camera is completely wasting that potential. It's the lazy, easy way out. Are they truly happy with that being their leg5b4acy? If so, it is pathetic. It's not like they're contributing anything meaningful to civilization.
Pornstars' answer: yawn
The world would function perfectly well without porn.
It's not made to help the world function to begin with. It has existed for centuries (much longer if you count pornographic drawings, paintings, sculptures, etc) b/c there's demand for it. Otherwise, it wouldn't have evolved into an industry. But in today's world, sex videos don't even have to involve the exchange of money. Homemade porn are uploaded online for free by exhibitionists around the world simply b/c it excites them. Pornstars wouldn't even exist today if people actually stop buying their products. And we've already established that those who pay are more pathetic than those who get paid. Prostitution is known as "the world's oldest profession". That's your precious civilization for you.
Skip to 5:00 of this video for some comedic enlightenment on how evolution's "greatest gift" gave us porn:
http://vimeo.com/16922193 -
quarrion-1 — 11 years ago(September 26, 2014 06:41 AM)
What I mean to say is that I don't really have an emotional investment in what they think - I just have a desire to understand it.
And I fail to see what is difficult to understand about it. If you are exhibitionist enough to perform sex on camera and never want to be a teacher then the obstacles aren't high. I don't see what barrier you are seeing.
Performer? Yes. Actor or artist? Please. Don't make me laugh.
I cannot comment on it - to me mainstream actors also aren't artists. So if people think that Helen Mirren is a great artist, then I can live with Sasha Grey being one.
Porn is not art - never was, never will be.
I simply disagree here. While actors are not artists in my book, movies definitely are art. And a few porn movies most certainly meet the threshold for art easily, possibly even grand art.
To get paid money to have sex is to be a whore.
But your own legal system consistently disagrees with you. She isn't paid to have sex with dude A, she is paid for the performance. You use a falseb68 equivalency here - much like confusing a fun ride on a roller coaster with the hard work of a truck driver.
The fact that money and sex are involved is a collateral - otherwise any divorced or married woman who gets material benefits would be a whore too.
I could even live with that standard but if housewives are not whores, porn stars aren't either (of course both could moonlight as prostitutes) and I think that the courts have it partially right there.
I'm sure she loves what she does, but just because something makes you feel good, doesn't mean it's good for you - or anyone else.
Sure it doesn't. But if you get paid, like it then that pretty much is what one colloquially would refer to as good. Working in a coal mine for a limited salary, now that is "not good" by any of the standards.
But maybe I am missing what you mean with "not good" here?
I don't see why any woman with the slightest amount of self respect would ever participate in something like that.
Ah this is what you try to understand! But some people have violent sex in private life even without money. I met girls who dumped "dud dates" because they refused to slap or kick or spank them or to force-gag them this has little to do with porn.
But yes, I don't understand it either.
I'm shocked that her parents haven't yet dragged her kicking and screaming away from the video set.
Ehm because she is an adult whose entitled to choices. This is the 21st century we tolerate most forms of widespread consenting sex .. and less the prudes successfully succeed in demonizing a certain activity. -
Just_Jenna — 11 years ago(September 26, 2014 06:32 PM)
.this is like that scene in Fight Club when Edward Norton fights himself.111c
www.jennamoquin.com -