Bitter woman
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Joni Mitchell
Treg1980 — 15 years ago(October 19, 2010 02:26 AM)
No don't get me wrong here, I'm one of Joni Mitchell's biggest fan with a huge collection of her work (cd's, dvd's, promo's, posters, books, even the Voices book:-) ) , but I'm also realistic and it bothers me a lot that Joni has always been such a bitter woman.
Look at how she bashed other female singer-songwriters. For example look at how she belittled Carly Simon. We all know why, right? Carly married James Taylor, who simply didn't have enough interest in Joni to marry her. The songs on For The Roses explain how much Joni loved the man. Also, Carly was way more succesfull in the 70's and 80's than Joni was. The woman wrote many lovely movie scores and even won an Oscar for one of them (Working Girl), while Joni waas only asked once to compose a movie score and it was turned down.
Carly has always been a bigger succes than Joni was and it must have horrified her to see her rival (at least that's how Joni saw Carly) being a bigger succes than she was.
Yes, Joni was succesfull untill Hejira, but after that album she didn't get these high sellings records anymore, while Carly continued to do well.
Off course Joni prefered Carole over Carly. Except for Tapestry For what records is Carole really known?
Yes, Carly is more contemporary than Joni, but Joni definitely saw her as a rival. Forget about Carly's best known songs, ther woman wrote some very deep lyrics (For example, Libby, We're So Close, Boys In The Trees, Orpheus, Do The Walls Come Down, From The Heart, The Garden, Our First Day Together, just to name some).
Also, why didn't Joni really include the Geffen years in her Woman of Heart and Mind documentary? I'll tell you why She wanted the docu to focuss on her successes. Look at how little she talks about Don Juan'Reckless Daughter, Mingus and the four Geffen albums.
Joni is very, VERY bitter about how these records were criticized and she's too proud to acknowledge that in a bio or interview. Instead of admitting she was lost in the 80's, she blames everything but herself for their failures. It's not that hard to admit those Geffen records were failures, except for the brilliant Night Ride Home.
Or look at how angry she was after Travelogue (which I L.O.V.E.) failed on the charts.
As a big fan all this anger and bitterness irritates me a lot.
Anyone?
And please don't bash me for telling the truth. I've read all the Joni bio's that were written over the years, have scrapbboks full of interviews with the lady and as I said, I'm one of her biggest fans (if I may call mysself so) and followers. I know what I'm talking about. I'm not a Joni basher, just a realist! -
Treg1980 — 15 years ago(October 20, 2010 11:20 AM)
Offcourse only Joni knows the truth, but any serious fan who knows a lot about Joni knows she's a bitter person who can not d16d0eal with criticism and competition. She hated Joan Baez for years, disliked Carly Simon until Carly divorced James Taylor The evidence is endless!
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RaptureRider — 15 years ago(February 02, 2011 08:28 AM)
Yes, Joni was succesfull untill Hejira, but after that album she didn't get these high sellings records anymore, while Carly continued to do well.
That's not exactly true. After her 1978 release
Boys in the Trees
, Carly never scored another top 20 hit album for 27 years. Joni Mitchell's album success also waned after 1979 and never scored another top twenty album until 30 years later. Also, Carly's album
Another Passenger
made #26 in 1976, while Joni's
Hejira
made #13 in the same year. Joni also scored another top 20 album in 1979 with
Mingus
, while Carly's
Spy
failed to break the top 40 in the same year.
Off course Joni prefered Carole over Carly. Except for Tapestry For what records is Carole really known?
Yes, Carly is more contemporary than Joni, but Joni definitely saw her as a rival. Forget about Carly's best known songs, ther woman wrote some very deep lyrics
One could argue that Carly Simon has been living off "You're So Vain" for much of her career. She's primarily known for that track and who it's rumoured to be about. She was and still isn't much of an album artist. Her album success was fleeting and the quality rarely stretched to a whole album.
Away from her solo career, Carole King is one of the most successful and prolific songwriters of the last 50 years and was inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame. She was writing hits well before
Tapestry
, hits that people have been singing and covering for decades now. Tapestry might be the album she's remembered for (and good reason since it's a fine piece of artistry), but it's album rich in songwriting that has outsold all of Carly's album put together. It's seen as a benchmark moment in music for women and singer/songwriters. She's also had more gold records than Carly. I would also say that Carole is known for the albums
Music
,
Rhymes and Reasons
and
Wrap Around Joy
. I think most people would hard stretched to name any Carly Simon album other than those released between '71-'75 and maybe
Coming Around Again
.
As for Joni, Carly Simon can only dream of being held in the regard Joni is and having as much critical acclaim, admiration, respect and praise thrusted on her. Carly is primarily known as 'that woman who sings about being vain' and 'that James Bond theme'. I've never read of Joni being bitter about Carly and I doubt Joni would see her as a threat because she hasn't and never will be.
ROCK ST
ARS HAVE KIDN
APPED MY SON -
jnor — 14 years ago(April 28, 2011 11:34 AM)
She also trashed Alanis Morissette a few times.
www.myspace.com/dullglitter -
darogr — 14 years ago(August 24, 2011 12:14 PM)
Well who could blame her for that? Ick.
To the OP:
As far as Mitchell not being successful after Hejira, didn't she win the Grammy Album of the Year for Turbulent Indigo? I would call that successful, among her peers at least, maybe it does not translate into record sales. Turbulent Indigo was brilliant, and the fact that it did not become a "hit" album only speaks to the musical tastes and fads of the times, not to Mitchell's talent.
As far as Carly Simon, she's still going around trying to tease us who "You're So Vain" was written about. Who cares? He's either dead or elderly by now.
Joni Mitchell is much more talented than Carly Simon. It seems to me that you may be a little bitter about that for some odd reason. Mitchell is an icon, Simon is a has been.
I could certainly understand back in the day if Mitchell was jealous of or even hated Simon because Taylor married her. It happens. I suspect that Taylor was Mitchell's bit unrequited love. Supposedly he was quite the stud back then and he was certainly a beautiful man.
Joni Mitchell is a temperamental, difficult woman by all accounts. She is also a genius. Geniuses get to be temperamental and difficult. A luxury Carly Simon does not enjoy. -
lionheart2004 — 14 years ago(August 28, 2011 07:45 AM)
To the OP:
I'm not sure how you can presume to know how Joni feels, or how you can make the assumption that she is bitter . . . She made her own way in life and stayed unmarried out choice according to Joni herself.
Maybe you are the one who is bitter. I don't think you can hang that one on Joni Mitchell, whom you have never met. Sounds to me like you are projecting your own feelings onto her. -
Treg1980 — 14 years ago(February 22, 2012 03:25 AM)
Late response, but anyway I'm sorry you feel that way and yes, I know it's hard for most Joni fans to admit that she's a bitter woman.
But any objective fan who's read all the books about her, seen and read interviews realize that it's true.
Look at her reactions to her Geffen records over the years. The fact that those albums failed is everyone's fault but her own.
Why? The genius can't find it in her heart to admit those records were boring to horrible?
I'm not a bitter person. What I am? A huge Joni fan and collector who has read all the books there are about her incl most interviews. I know her life story by heart and yes I do like her. The fact that I'm convinced she's bitter doesn't mean I don't like her. She's human like all of us. But do I think she's a very nice and kind person? I don't think so.
If this makes me a bitter or horrible person, than it be so. -
ofumalow — 13 years ago(July 13, 2012 10:52 PM)
Treg, you're the one who started comparing Joni to Carlyapples and oranges, as far as I'm concerned. But coming from the same place as you, I agree it's sad and undeniable that Joni has made so many embittered, mean-spirited comments over the years. Most recently by calling Bob Dylan a "plagiarist"! I wish she'd understand that she only hurts her own legacy by pissing on everyone else. I wonder how many young artists who admire her got turned off by hearing her dismiss so many of her contemporaries and more recent (particularly female) musicians. Does she realize she's become exactly the kind of "These kids nowadays don't know NUTHIN!!!" muttering old fogey that's the opposite of everything her early songs represented?
