Indian/ Black Relations
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mizladylala — 20 years ago(August 05, 2005 08:23 AM)
My family is West-Indian (non-Trinidadian though) and we don't pronounce 'dougla' as 'douglas' as in 'Michael Douglas'it's kinda like "Doh-glah". I have no idea where the term comes from. There's another term used to describe black/East-Indian mixes in Trinidad, Guyana, etc: 'Coolie' but it's considered VERY offensive
**Edit: check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dougla -
baleetedbaby — 20 years ago(August 12, 2005 05:58 PM)
yeaaa i have heard of the term dougla but im use to people saying Cooliebut the India5b4n people at my school and the ones that live around/near me aren't offended by the termits like how black people use the word beep
im trini/jamaican/and chinese and ive never really heard any of my indian friends say they cant go out with someone because of their racebut my friends parents are VERY strict on her about her liking other girls..they consider it a disease -
xLalia — 20 years ago(September 08, 2005 08:05 PM)
There's another term used to describe black/East-Indian mixes in Trinidad, Guyana, etc: 'Coolie' but it's considered VERY offensive
Is it really offensive? I never knew that and considering the fact that I'm Guyanese-American, that's a major setback.
"You people make my ass twitch.
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-French Kiss -
kaorimakimura — 20 years ago(October 15, 2005 09:59 AM)
I'm from Martinique ( or Martinica, a French West Indian island.
My mother is a coolie (indian father and black mother) and my father is black, so I'm a coolie too. In my island, there are a lot of people like me, of indian descent, but only a little part of all them still practice the religion and way of living of the hindus, are very offended by the "coolie" word, and only date/marry within their circle. The others are more like me, aware of their indian descent, but not following any particular rule towards dating.
I went to Trinidad, I was surprised with the really big Indian community, and I saw that, like in Martinique, "dougla" and "coolie" remain offensive for older people and traditionalists.
In the West-Indies, maybe twenty or thirty years ago, those words were used to insult people, but for the new generation, they are more a part of the person's identity. -
KiranukPW — 17 years ago(July 04, 2008 02:37 AM)
INTERESTING! anyway..having read the comments i think that people are quitre ignorant to indian culture. being indian myself i am dating a white irish man and its cool both ends! lucky for me i have a multi-cultural family! the only problem indians have16d0 is when they marry a mulsime tc.. that is the WORSE thing ever! indians are ok with a white person but not black or muslim!
hope that clarifies this for some people -
shadylady80 — 19 years ago(April 16, 2006 03:59 PM)
Yeah the children of a black and Indian relationship in Trinidad & Tabago are called Dogla
Not to sure why that term was chosen and neither do any of my trini friends, but I know a lot of guys are attracted to them there. I also returned from Jamaica 2 weeks ago and that mix there are called Coolie (althought it is a negative term used towards indian people in general) many people use is there, And they(indian, black white etc) love black women in JA:). So the whole world is not caught up on the skin colour/ culture thing.
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onegirlrev — 20 years ago(October 10, 2005 09:43 AM)
"Outside of looking like a typical American mutt, outbred with so many ethnicities, we get along just fine. Indians tend to value fair skin, straight (and long) hair, and sharp noses just like many other cultures and sub-cultures."
Indians can be so superficial. check out ratedesi.com forums and see what they think of blacks yourself.
I also hate the fact they give their children no choices. They either become a doctor or lawyer and only marry indians. i understand that they want their children to be financially secure, but there are more important things in life. Like happiness, unity, and freedom.
Somebody's got to lead this revolution and I guess it's gonna be me. -
sista_girl — 19 years ago(July 02, 2006 03:58 PM)
in response to cleveland_1999's an alwilliams025's postings:
i think black/indian relations differ a bit between the u.s. and the u.k. as far as the way indians are perceived, in the u.s., indians are often described as "indian" or "south asian", and the term "asian" usually is meant to describe someone from south east asia (i.e. china, japan, thailand, vietnam, etc). and in the u.k. (as far as i have experienced) "asian" will be used to describe someone who is indian or of indian descent. the point being that because of the race/color issues that tend to be the norm in the u.s. dating back to slavery, lighter skinned asians from "the orient" are often put in a different category from darker skinned asians. also, i often find that regardless of whether a person is indian, pakistani, or bengali, some people will always sort of lump you into the "indian" box because it makes it easier for them to understand somehow.
as far as reasons why parminder's character in BILB says that she definitely would not be allowed to marry a black guy, i can only posit a few guesses. i don't live in the u.k., and i'm not from a sikh indian family, so these are JUST guessescultural observations.
here goes: jess (in the movie) wasn't from a completely insular community, but a large part of her life was centered around her family and their traditions. it doesn't necessarily have to be that her family doesn't want her to be with a black person (or other non-indian) based on race alone. it may just be that after coming to live in a foreign country and struggling to make a life for themselves there to raise a family, maybe the transplanted family doesn't want her to lose the culture and traditions that they raised her with. in a sense "take her away from everything that THEY know" as she says in the film.
another thought why it might n111cot be acceptable (and is portrayed in the film as being the least desirable of all possible non-indian matches) could be due to the way that black people are often portrayed in the media. if her family turns on the t.v. and the only images they see of black people is of pimps, prostitutes, hustlers, thugs, gangsters, and criminals (and in the case of black men also absent fathers)well of course her family doesn't want that kind of life for their daughter. if the only counterpoint to that argument that they can see is oprah, and even she regularly interviews or hosts shows with topics surrounding the media-touted version of "black life", any good parents would be wary of a daughter bringing that home. of course, if they actually KNOW any black people, then those stereotypes wouldn't hold such validity. but of course 1st and 2nd generations immigrants (indian or otherwise) will tend to live in neighborhoods where they can be around others in the same situation and will understand their cultural concerns, etc.
another thought could very well be flat out racism/colorism. old school thinking among indians and blacks alike is that whiter is righter. for blacks it may be said that this stems from slavery and the darker slaves working in the field while the lighter slaves (often the product of the master having sexual relations with a slave) worked in the house. and of course the racism in america making it more difficult from slavery to the present day for someone very dark skinned to have access to good schools, higher education, and white collar jobs and a life of privilege. in india this also used to be the case with the caste system. often the darker indians were in a lower caste. and even though jess's family is in a new country and those same old school ideologies don't necessarily apply, subconsciously it is still ingrained in the elders of the family. again, if they actually KNOW some black people, a lot of these ideas are turned on their head.
that's just some thoughts on the subject anyway -
skwiu — 20 years ago(June 22, 2005 09:42 AM)
This is just my theory: it is not based on a huge amount of information or personal knowledgejust mostly an impression from people's expressions in the movie Bend It Like Bekham and expressions on the IMDB boards.
It seems to me that they don't want the mixture of the black and Indian because the children could become naturally darker because of 5b4it. I am Irish-American and some of my family by marriage (not Irish, only related by marriage) have expressed the concern of my family members marrying blacks because the children are born darker. My cousin (who has a black father) was discouraged by these family members from playing outside while growing because they were afraid she would get darkerthough these are the same people that put me down for being pale skinned.
In the movie Bend It like Beckham (and its deleted scenes), the Indians portrayed do not like Jess' darker skineven her sister Pinky comments on it. On other threads I have found on IMDB, there is the opinion that a darker Indian woman is a less attractive Indian woman.
Again, this is just my theory based on my limited observations. Take it for what it is.
Shan
"A Friend is one before whom I can think aloud." ~~Ralph Waldo Emmerson -
onegirlrev — 20 years ago(January 12, 2006 08:46 PM)
that's sad. Colorism still being an issue globally. I find dark skin to be beatiful. There's nothing wrong with a child having melanin in their skinit's actually a good thing if you look at it from scientific/biological standpoint.
Somebody's got to lead this revolution and I guess it's gonna be me. -
skwiu — 20 years ago(January 13, 2006 10:06 PM)
"that's sad. Colorism still being an issue globally. I find dark skin to be beatiful. There's nothing wrong with a child having melanin in their skinit's actually a good thing if you look at it from scientific/biological standpoint."
I find all skin beautiful. I think that the darkest of skin is beautiful and my paler than pale skin is beautiful and I think all the shades in between are just as beautiful. I think people spend too much time trying to categorize the shades of people's skin. I don't just see light and dark, I see all the amazing variations we can be and think that it wouldn't be as beautiful if any one of those variations was missing. We all compliment each other.
Shan
"A Friend is one before whom I can think aloud." ~~Ralph Waldo Emmerson -
jaroon7648 — 20 years ago(July 22, 2005 11:39 AM)
in many cases, the blacks and indians don't get along in africa. Uganda expelled its indian population in the 70s. A friend of mine studied abroad in kenya and told me the indians and the blacks don't get along there. He said that many of the indians have their own communities, don't have kenyan citizen ship, don't consider themselves african (despite being born and raised in kenya) and speak their indian languages and english refusing to speak kenyan languageus such as swahili.
Similar thing in the caribbean and south america. many indians went to the english colonies in the region. blacks were brought to be slaves. the two groups have had disagreements their as well. -
ashleytpaul5 — 20 years ago(August 10, 2005 01:28 AM)
Being half black and indian, I can honestly tell you that the situation is not as drastic as you guys think. My mother (black) grew up in Trinidad and the majority is black and indian and they get along fine.
In some cases, however there are problems. In Guyana, South America, there is some tension, but not a lot. My dad(Indian) being from Guyana had no problem announcing that he and my mom were engaged. There are problems but those problems involve people in general. -
southpaw2k1 — 20 years ago(August 16, 2005 01:41 AM)
Sometimes it seems that it's more permissible for an Indian male and a black female being together than the other way around, ashleytpaul5. But since I've never to neither Trinidad nor Guyana, how is it for Indian females and black males as couples? Good? Bad?
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ayanna6 — 20 years ago(August 16, 2005 10:00 AM)
"This was said by Dr Elizabeth Rosabelle Sieusarran, when she gave the feature address at yesterday's official launch of the Indian Arrival Day Heritage Village being set up by the El Dorado Shiv Mandir at its Caura Road, El Dorado, compound. Ms. Sieusarran teaches at the University of the West Indies School of Continuing Education, San Fernando, and is also involved with several social organisations. She commented on what she defined5b4 as the westernisation of local East Indians, calling on Trinidadians of East Indian descent to hold on to their heritage:
'"In our quest for establishing unity among our people it is imperative for us to note a rapidly increasing phenomenon from the rise of a western system of education and the consequential westernisation of the Indian community. This has resulted in the prevalence of inter-caste, inter-religious and inter-racial marriages. The Indian community has to decide how to handle the offspring of this significant group locally referred to as Douglas. Do we accept them or ostracise them? Whatever course is adopted, the fragmentation of the Indian community must be avoided. Above all, we must always remember that Trinidad and Tobago is our patrimony. Our ancestors gave their blood and we have laboured to enrich our country. We live in a multi-cultural society and co-existence is a necessary ingredient for our success in the future," Sieusarran said.
'At one point during her statement, Sieusarran stopped and looked around the mandir for several seconds before telling the people that she was looking around to see if there were any Douglas present.'
The complete story: http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=77969853