Did Scrooge or Marley deserve eternal damnation?
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Navaros — 9 years ago(December 09, 2016 11:02 PM)
Who's to say that Scrooge "would've been better off morally"?
This film itself
says that. In fact, that's one of its fundamental main points!
Scrooge started out as a good guy, but yet the more he "bettered himself" by becoming rich, the more he had to step on the heads of other people, a.k.a. the more evil he had to become.
Everything
about this film hits that point as hard as it can possibly be hit.
How is that wrong? Because you say it is?
Again, it's wrong because
that's the whole point of the film!
By responding to these questions, I feel like I've fell into a Theatre of the Absurd stage play!
You might as well be asking"Why are carrots orange, because you say so?"
how is this Scrooges's problem?
Because Scrooge was exploiting Bob's labor whilst not giving Bob enough money to help Bob and his family live a good lifeeven though Scrooge could have easily afforded to.
Where is the evidence that he "arbitrarily held Bob back by deliberately underpaying him"?
This question too is
blatantly absurd.
The evidence is in many scenes throughout the entire film. I.e. Scrooge makes fun of Bob by explicitly announcing Bob's very low wage and how it is not enough to provide for a good life for himself and his family. Then there's Bob's meager "feast" at his house on Christmas day (that one scene hits this point
multiple times
in and of itself). Oh yeah, then there is the fact that Tiny Tim dies (in the original reality), again because Scrooge doesn't pay Bob enough money.
Are your questions supposed to be serious? I don't understand how you could possibly miss these blatantly obvious points of the film. It's not like the film makes these points subtly or only once.
If Bob so "deliberately underpaid" then why didn't he look for a better position elsewhere?
Because, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, Bob is loyal to Scrooge. Bob in this film is the ideal Christian man. He loves Scrooge unconditionally even though Scrooge treats him like garbage. Bob's loyalty to Scrooge & overall goodness is meant to contrast with Scrooge's disloyalty to Fezziwig & overall evilness - which it does brilliantly, as I've pointed out.
now you're saying Scrooge was paying him a decent wage to support his family?
Scrooge gave Bob enough money to let him and his family survive, but no more than that. I wouldn't exactly call that a "decent" wage.
Also how is it not Bob's fault for planning badly? Is it not his money, his finances? At some point in his career he should've been saving something, planning ahead.
To save anything requires a surplus of money with each paycheck. Bob had no surplus, because Scrooge did not pay him enough to have any. Therefore, Bob's lack of savings is Scrooge's fault, not Bob's.
Bob was in the growing middle class, he wasn't among the poor.
I don't agree there. Bob was among the working poor. He wasn't a pauper, nopaupers had less money than Bob. Bob was just poor
to a lesser degree
than a pauper. But Bob was still poor. And Bob was poor
because of
Scrooge. -
novastar_6 — 10 years ago(December 29, 2015 09:30 PM)
If anyone had a hand in his death it would be his own father.
And yet no ghosts went to visit Bob to tell him his son would be dead by next Christmas, they went to Scrooge, the one who could actually do something about it. -
devildog1982z — 10 years ago(December 29, 2015 10:15 PM)
And yet no ghosts went to visit Bob to tell him his son would be dead by next Christmas, they went to Scrooge, the one who could actually do something about it.
The "ghosts" went to Scrooge because the author had an agenda and wrote it that way. Fairy tales are nice to believe, but the real world doesn't work that way. It was Bob's kid. Remember Bob? The one you said "could support them enough for them to survive". So it is now Scrooges's responsibility to take care of Tiny Tim's illness? -
elgatony — 9 years ago(December 24, 2016 09:53 PM)
http://41.media.tumblr.com/b1cd08729abefd3f7b5418634f1f120c/tumblr_mocgggN7di1su9syao1_500.jpg
Jamie Lee Curtis survived Halloween, the Fog, Prom Night and a Terror Train & now she can't poop! -
Navaros — 9 years ago(December 09, 2016 11:15 PM)
it is now Scrooges's responsibility to take care of Tiny Tim's illness?
Yes it is,
because Scrooge caused Tiny Tim to die
in the original reality, by way of not paying Bob enough money to purchase proper medical care for Tim. -
jsk32870 — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 03:29 PM)
I understand where you are going with this, however, it really does not make a lot of sense.
Put yourself in a similar situation. Pretend you have a sick child and you can't afford to pay for his or her medical care on your current salary. Do you sit by for the next year, wait for the child to die, then shrug your shoulders and say, 'oh well, my boss wouldn't give me a raise, so, sorry about that kid. It's all his fault.'
I'm not even going to ask if you would actually agree with that, because morally, you just can't.
You can certainly make the argument that Scrooge
should
have paid Bob more and, had he done so, Bob could have afforded better treatment for Tim. But it is seriously weak to suggest there was nothing else that could be done to address the situation other than Scrooge opening his purse-strings, and therefore, Scrooge and Scrooge alone is to blame. Bob can look for another job. Bob can look for a second job. Peter can look for a job, or the Mrs. perhaps, the kids appear to be getting older. Or perhaps Bob can check with the solicitors who were collecting donations at the beginning of the film. Let me repeat: YOUR KID IS DYING. What wouldn't you do, or try to do, to remedy this situation? Blaming it on your boss and his miserly ways is morally unacceptable, I'm sorry. Especially since Scrooge is well known for being a miser, Bob was fooling himself if he thought that Scrooge was going to be paying a lot when he took the job. I'm sure Scrooge's reputation preceded him long before Bob was even hired.
Scrooge has the
opportunity
to help and chooses not to, that is his sin. Marley even says at one point "Not to know that no space of regret can make amends for one life's opportunity misused! Yet such was I!"
But it is not Scrooge's
responsibility
to get help for Tim, that lies with Bob as the parent. Opportunity and Responsibility are two different concepts. -
Big_AL-96 — 9 years ago(December 03, 2016 12:48 AM)
There is a very you good book that follows the story of Jacob Marley from child to death and hos time as a spectre.
In the book when he meets Scrooge he offers him a job but states that being engaged to a poor girl is not conducive to his business etc, so begins the process of bitterness. In essence Marley moulds Scrooge. He becomes more anti social and bitter than Marley, through Markey's guidance. On his deathbed at the end he realises the great ill he has done Scrooge and tries to tell him to change but all he manages is "we were wrong".
On passing he is saved, but he pleads with the spirit to allow someone to help Scrooge see the error of his ways. Marley is told he will have the fate of walking the Earth for this favour and if Scrooge does not repent he too will meet that fate that he was destined for.
I will not mention how it ends for Marley but it is a good read written in the style of Dickens and gives a good slant on the story, interweaving essential parts.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jacob-T-Marley-William-Bennett/dp/1609079159/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480754420&sr=8-1&keywords=Jacob+t+Marley
Let's pray the human race never escapes Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. C.S Lewis -
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elena-28 — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 10:36 AM)
Two cents concerning the OP's observation:
As his nephew points out Scrooge's own worst enemy is himself. He does himself far worse damage than he does to anyone else. The things he does to set himself right at the end do not seem to be that desperate or drastic.
My take is that, to be one's own worst enemy is, indeed, a terrible thing, and one that reverberates through every action and thought. It affects your health, your energy, your outlook, and yes, what happens to the people who come within your orbit.
If Scrooge had not changed, this would have been the last year of his life, as well as the last year of Tiny Tim's. He would have left no legacy, emotional or otherwise, by which he would have a positive impact. He would have been alone in his last moments. His business, which he devotes his energy and life to, would have gone to other hands or disappeared (or maybe it would have gone to Fred, but the implication is that Fred and he have severed ties for good).
Changed Scrooge, because of his brighter, more energy-admitting outlook, lives years longer than he would have otherwise. He is healthier, happier, more invigorated. This reflects in what happens to everyone around him (most drastically, Tiny Tim, of course). Cratchit's work probably improves greatly, if only because his fingers won't be turning blue at the office. His business will likely be run differently: more negotiations with clients; recommendations from these clients to go to Scrooge for a fair shake at a loan (being generous and optimistic doesn't mean being an idiot). He may decide to be able to employ more clerks, instead of only Bob, which will create more employment. When he dies, he will probably leave the business to Fred, secure in the fact that he will have left behind something that people will remember and thank him for.
So, I do believe that yes, being his own worst enemy is a terrible thing. To himself. And by extension, to the people around him. By being his own enemy, he is damned because he has damned himself. -
Big_AL-96 — 9 years ago(December 22, 2016 01:31 AM)
It does somewhat, but it was Marley's influence (according to this book) that made Scrooge the person he became and Marley realises that he has damned Scrooge to eternity because of him.
If you don't want to know the end of the book don't read the spoiler below.
Because of the repenting of Scrooge and the change in his ways and the unselfish act of Marley, he is also redeemed (again)
Let's pray the human race never escapes Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. C.S Lewis
