Ok, stop with the "racist movie" thing
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Karl Aksel — 10 years ago(March 29, 2016 06:18 AM)
It is not a movie about Indian people, but a fictional story about a thugee cult.
We all know (the film makers included) that Indians dont eat snakes or monkey brains". It's just a comedic scene from an adventure movie, depicting the habits of a deranged group of people.
Not how it comes across, though. If they had left in the scene in the script where Indy is puzzled at the very un-Hindu-like behaviour of these people, then you could use that argument. As it is, however, these particular cultists are not presented as being separate from Indian culture. The Thuggees were a real cult, and part of Hindu culture - they were not by any means "deranged". This movie presents Kali as monstrous, and the cultists as evil - without making any effort to show them as different from the historical cultists. Subsequently, these fictional cultists are not represented as being "false" Hindus. The movie portrays, quite simply, that
this
is how Kali was/is worshipped. I am personally not offended, but I understand how Indians might be.
If we think that way, we could say that the 1st and the 3d Indy movies are racists against German because it depict Nazis ?!
Completely different comparison. First of all, it does depict - indirectly, through Indy's comments - German
soldiers
as nazis, and even that much is unfair. But it doesn't really depict German soldiers in such a way as to make one say, "no German was like THAT". They were generally not portrayed as much different from any other person in uniform. They weren't really portrayed at all, with the exception of officers with speaking parts.
Now, if the nazis in the Indy-movies had been portrayed as, say, salivating cannibals who liked to impale children for fun, then one could - and certainly
would- be outraged at the portrayal of German soldiers.
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thylacine80 — 10 years ago(March 29, 2016 06:49 AM)
these particular cultists are not presented as being separate from Indian culture.
Of course they are ! A crazy bunch of deranged people, eating monkey brains, looking for sacred stones and killing people in a remote palace are not "Indian people".
The Thuggees were a real cult, and part of Hindu culture - they were not by any means "deranged".
The Thugee were a real cult, killing and robbing people on the road. Just as nazis were a real ideolgy, killing innocent people.
None of these groups (Thugees in India and nazis in Germany) are representative of the country.
This movie presents Kali as monstrous
Wrong again. This movie depicts the Thugee cult as monstrous. Not the deity.
Just as islamists are monstrous, allah is not -
Karl Aksel — 10 years ago(March 29, 2016 06:58 AM)
Of course they are ! A crazy bunch of deranged people, eating monkey brains, looking for sacred stones and killing people in a remote palace are not "Indian people".
Says who? This movie makes no attempt to say as much.
The Thugee were a real cult, killing and robbing people on the road.
Yes, but they were a religious cult, with very strict rules, and they were absolutely part of Indian culture. This movie makes no attempt whatsoever to separate the movie cultists from historical cultists, and that's why the movie presents the bad guys as belonging to Indian culture.
Wrong again.
Take a look at that statue.
This movie depicts the Thugee cult as monstrous. Not the deity.
Where, in the movie, does anyone so much as
hint
that they are worshipping Kali the wrong way? -
thylacine80 — 10 years ago(March 29, 2016 07:21 AM)
Says who? This movie makes no attempt to say as much.
Says I. We're here to talk about our feelings about a movie.
So yep, "I" do say that in a movie depicting a group of deranged criminals, the entire population of the country the criminals are in is not involved.
The godfather is not sayin that "Italian American people are gangsters".
they were a religious cult, with very strict rules, and they were absolutely part of Indian culture.
Just the same as Christians were "culturaly" violent during the crusades or the muslims used to be warriors.
Fortunately, if we make a movie about a crazy group of deviant christians or a secret muslim cult, it is still not about Arabic people or christian people
Take a look at that statue.
All right, enough of that. I'm not gonna start a virtual fight over a film. You shouldn't be offended by different opinions.
Different opinions happen.
Let's just leave it there. Take care, and have a good day. -
Karl Aksel — 10 years ago(March 29, 2016 08:13 AM)
Says I. We're here to talk about our feelings about a movie.
So yep, "I" do say that in a movie depicting a group of deranged criminals, the entire population of the country the criminals are in is not involved.
Ok, that's
your
opinion. Now explain how the movie portrays the cultists as anything other than Hindu.
Just the same as Christians were "culturaly" violent during the crusades or the muslims used to be warriors.
Fortunately, if we make a movie about a crazy group of deviant christians or a secret muslim cult, it is still not about Arabic people or christian people
The Christians were culturally violent, yes - and that would be a fitting generalisation, not just applied to crusaders. And ditto Muslims, of course. Society was harsh. Now, the thing about the Thuggee is that the ones in the movie bear no resemblance whatsoever to the historical Thuggee. Nor does Kali in the movie resemble in any way Kali of the actual religion.
All right, enough of that. I'm not gonna start a virtual fight over a film. You shouldn't be offended by different opinions.
Different opinions happen.
Huh? If you wish to concede the point, fine, but I fail to see how I was supposed to be "offended" at any point in this thread. On the contrary,
you
were the one who started this thread with an air of indignation, which you continued with your brusque "wrong again". And now you are accusing
me
of being offended by different opinions? -
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kmags84 — 9 years ago(May 29, 2016 12:28 AM)
Bing, Bong, Bip, Bang, Pow!
Nailed it. The straws will be grasped but that's the fact of the matter. I'm a very Liberal Guy when it comes to these matters but it's a fictional story, with fictional people in a different time and it's allowed Cinematic Liberties to tell the story. Spielberg is not a man looking to rip apart a Culture. -
Educator07 — 9 years ago(July 09, 2016 02:25 PM)
Like Birth of a Nation (1915)? By your reasoning if some Confederate Apologists and Sony produced a movie set during 1864 in which freed blacks (speaking ebonics, eating watermelon, and committing crimes) begged to return to their former masters because "slavery wasn't all that bad" (minus the being raped and whipped thing) African Americans shouldn't be upset because it's fiction and occurred in a different time.
Bull crap. Esp. considering there are whites that are selling a narrative that slavery really wasn't all that bad. -
kmags84 — 9 years ago(July 09, 2016 02:48 PM)
And while Slavery still exists in Africa, let's point at a film from 1915, with far more Literal Racist INTENTIONS. I swear, it's like people who call Viva La Cuba a Documentary rather than Propaganda. There are lines in the sand. Where Reality and Fiction are separated. Story Telling Vs FORCED Narrative.
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joe_538 — 9 years ago(April 19, 2016 02:38 PM)
As it is, however, these particular cultists are not presented as being separate from Indian culture.
Not even when it's pointed out the thuggees aren't even supposed to exist anymore? It's pretty plain they're deviating from the cultural norms, and what "should be" for India in 1935. -
Karl Aksel — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 01:04 AM)
Not even when it's pointed out the thuggees aren't even supposed to exist anymore? It's pretty plain they're deviating from the cultural norms, and what "should be" for India in 1935.
They're not supposed to exist anymore because the British wiped them out - not because of cultural evolution. The Thuggees were part of Hindu culture, and at no point does anyone say that "this is not what the Thuggees were like!" Just the opposite, in fact: when they are watching the ceremony from their concealed position, Indy says "nobody's seen this for a hundred years" - meaning we are to take it this is what an actual Thuggee ceremony looked like - that this sort of ceremony was part of Hindu culture. -
buddyboy28 — 9 years ago(April 20, 2016 11:59 AM)
If they had left in the scene where Indy is puzzled at the very un-Hindu-like behaviour of these people, then you could use that argument
I hate the PC brigade getting offended by everything but I can't disagree with this.
Harrison Ford and Steven Spielberg themselves have said it was insensitive to Indian culture.
Just a little look of disgust or shock from Indy would have prevented the racism accusations I think. -
Arvin-G-Borkar — 9 years ago(September 11, 2016 06:54 PM)
Some of what you said is kind of false.
Thuggies were real, but were not Hindu. Thuggie was a belief, a Muslim belief. Since Indians could be Muslims or Hindu, it WAS part of Indian culture.
I just wanted to set that straight.
Mola Ram even says "The Hindu God will fall", so clearly Kali was suppose to be a Muslim God. The actual thuggie did not associate with Kali as their God. I am thinking the actual God was Allah, however, they did not use it in the movie because the Western world would probably have trouble associating Allah with India (that is just my take).
THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR. COLLEGE FOOTBALL IS HERE!!! -
Karl Aksel — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 12:58 AM)
Thuggies were real, but were not Hindu. Thuggie was a belief, a Muslim belief. Since Indians could be Muslims or Hindu, it WAS part of Indian culture.
I have no idea where you got this from. Kali is a Hindu goddess, not a Muslim one. The Thuggee venerated Kali - it was a Kali death cult.
Mola Ram even says "The Hindu God will fall", so clearly Kali was suppose to be a Muslim God.
No, you are completely wrong. He says the
Hebrew
god will fall. This is what he says:
The British in India will be slaughtered.
Then we will overrun the Moslems.
And then the Hebrew God will fall and finally the Christian God will be cast down and forgotten.
Note the part in bold. In the actual script, they even have a further tidbit which did not make it to the movie:
The British in India will be slaughtered. Then we will overrun the Moslems
and force their "Allah" to bow to Kali.
And then the Hebrew God will fall and finally the Christian God will be cast down and forgotten.
Go, see for yourself if you don't believe me. -
Arvin-G-Borkar — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 04:52 AM)
"Go, see for yourself if you don't believe me."
In the words of Mola Ram "You don't believe me? We will make you a true believer."
Yeah, I did look at the script and I was confusing the real life of what they were to what the script in the movie was. From what I have read about them, they were a band of criminals who were largely Muslim, however, some Hindus did join it early on.
So weird though, I always hear Mola Ram saying Muslims instead of Hebrews. Could I be prejudiced? YIPE!!!
THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR. COLLEGE FOOTBALL IS HERE!!! -
Karl Aksel — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 07:38 AM)
"Go, see for yourself if you don't believe me."
In the words of Mola Ram "You don't believe me? We will make you a true believer."
Even as I wrote that quote above, I couldn't help thinking of those words by Mola Ram myself. And pedant that I am, I have to correct you a little bit:
"You don't believe me? You will, Dr. Jones. You will become a true believer."
Yeah, I did look at the script and I was confusing the real life of what they were to what the script in the movie was. From what I have read about them, they were a band of criminals who were largely Muslim, however, some Hindus did join it early on.
Yes, though it may have originated as band of Muslim bandits, it evolved into a Hindu cult - though there were Muslim members as well, throughout the existence of the Thuggee. How they managed to reconcile their faith with Kali-worship, however, I have no idea. -
ghostly_host — 9 years ago(July 17, 2016 06:45 PM)
Nobody said Raiders or Last Crusade are racist because it is within political correctness and social norms to depict white people as evil. TOD depicted some Hindu people as evil and therefore politcal correctness demands the film be attacked.
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Arvin-G-Borkar — 9 years ago(September 11, 2016 06:48 PM)
lol
India was offended and thus why they had to shoot in Sri Lanka. Both Spielberg and Ford even confirmed that. Additionally, Kali is an actual south Indian goddess AS WE SPEAK and is being used for a polar opposite religion (representative of what Christians think of Satanists). Then you throw in the fact that their food consists of bugs and Indian people, Shiva believers, live in villages and are ugly (you have to admit that village elder was ugly).
The reason those other movies were not as prejudiced was because those were ethnic groups still considered to be under the umbrella term "white". You may not think people do not think certain things about Indian people; however, it gives them more ammo. They could bring up the fact that Indians DO have child labor (they do in rural parts), their beliefs are close to demonic (Western views do think Paganism is Satanic), are poor (most of India is in poverty), and their food could be made from grinding bugs (let's be real, to an uneducated American, most of the food is pureed and could be made from it if they do not like the taste nor the look).
It is a basis of making fun off another culture, if in the wrong hands. Indians are the laughing stock of the west with people still thinking they own quickie marts (thanks APU from the The Simpsons), smell like curry (derogatory remarks), wear dots on their heads (women do and some men after prayer ceremonies), AND A NEW ONE, they are somehow associated with terrorists.
THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR. COLLEGE FOOTBALL IS HERE!!!