Ok, stop with the "racist movie" thing
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Arvin-G-Borkar — 9 years ago(September 11, 2016 06:54 PM)
Some of what you said is kind of false.
Thuggies were real, but were not Hindu. Thuggie was a belief, a Muslim belief. Since Indians could be Muslims or Hindu, it WAS part of Indian culture.
I just wanted to set that straight.
Mola Ram even says "The Hindu God will fall", so clearly Kali was suppose to be a Muslim God. The actual thuggie did not associate with Kali as their God. I am thinking the actual God was Allah, however, they did not use it in the movie because the Western world would probably have trouble associating Allah with India (that is just my take).
THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR. COLLEGE FOOTBALL IS HERE!!! -
Karl Aksel — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 12:58 AM)
Thuggies were real, but were not Hindu. Thuggie was a belief, a Muslim belief. Since Indians could be Muslims or Hindu, it WAS part of Indian culture.
I have no idea where you got this from. Kali is a Hindu goddess, not a Muslim one. The Thuggee venerated Kali - it was a Kali death cult.
Mola Ram even says "The Hindu God will fall", so clearly Kali was suppose to be a Muslim God.
No, you are completely wrong. He says the
Hebrew
god will fall. This is what he says:
The British in India will be slaughtered.
Then we will overrun the Moslems.
And then the Hebrew God will fall and finally the Christian God will be cast down and forgotten.
Note the part in bold. In the actual script, they even have a further tidbit which did not make it to the movie:
The British in India will be slaughtered. Then we will overrun the Moslems
and force their "Allah" to bow to Kali.
And then the Hebrew God will fall and finally the Christian God will be cast down and forgotten.
Go, see for yourself if you don't believe me. -
Arvin-G-Borkar — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 04:52 AM)
"Go, see for yourself if you don't believe me."
In the words of Mola Ram "You don't believe me? We will make you a true believer."
Yeah, I did look at the script and I was confusing the real life of what they were to what the script in the movie was. From what I have read about them, they were a band of criminals who were largely Muslim, however, some Hindus did join it early on.
So weird though, I always hear Mola Ram saying Muslims instead of Hebrews. Could I be prejudiced? YIPE!!!
THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR. COLLEGE FOOTBALL IS HERE!!! -
Karl Aksel — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 07:38 AM)
"Go, see for yourself if you don't believe me."
In the words of Mola Ram "You don't believe me? We will make you a true believer."
Even as I wrote that quote above, I couldn't help thinking of those words by Mola Ram myself. And pedant that I am, I have to correct you a little bit:
"You don't believe me? You will, Dr. Jones. You will become a true believer."
Yeah, I did look at the script and I was confusing the real life of what they were to what the script in the movie was. From what I have read about them, they were a band of criminals who were largely Muslim, however, some Hindus did join it early on.
Yes, though it may have originated as band of Muslim bandits, it evolved into a Hindu cult - though there were Muslim members as well, throughout the existence of the Thuggee. How they managed to reconcile their faith with Kali-worship, however, I have no idea. -
ghostly_host — 9 years ago(July 17, 2016 06:45 PM)
Nobody said Raiders or Last Crusade are racist because it is within political correctness and social norms to depict white people as evil. TOD depicted some Hindu people as evil and therefore politcal correctness demands the film be attacked.
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Arvin-G-Borkar — 9 years ago(September 11, 2016 06:48 PM)
lol
India was offended and thus why they had to shoot in Sri Lanka. Both Spielberg and Ford even confirmed that. Additionally, Kali is an actual south Indian goddess AS WE SPEAK and is being used for a polar opposite religion (representative of what Christians think of Satanists). Then you throw in the fact that their food consists of bugs and Indian people, Shiva believers, live in villages and are ugly (you have to admit that village elder was ugly).
The reason those other movies were not as prejudiced was because those were ethnic groups still considered to be under the umbrella term "white". You may not think people do not think certain things about Indian people; however, it gives them more ammo. They could bring up the fact that Indians DO have child labor (they do in rural parts), their beliefs are close to demonic (Western views do think Paganism is Satanic), are poor (most of India is in poverty), and their food could be made from grinding bugs (let's be real, to an uneducated American, most of the food is pureed and could be made from it if they do not like the taste nor the look).
It is a basis of making fun off another culture, if in the wrong hands. Indians are the laughing stock of the west with people still thinking they own quickie marts (thanks APU from the The Simpsons), smell like curry (derogatory remarks), wear dots on their heads (women do and some men after prayer ceremonies), AND A NEW ONE, they are somehow associated with terrorists.
THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR. COLLEGE FOOTBALL IS HERE!!! -
thylacine80 — 9 years ago(September 11, 2016 11:47 PM)
Then you throw in the fact that their food consists of bugs
In the film, it is not "indians" who are eating bugs but a deranged group of criminals.
You may not think people do not think certain things about Indian people
In the film, it is not "indians" who are believed to be certain things but a deranged group of criminals.
It is a basis of making fun off another culture
In the film, it is not "indians" we are making fun of, but a deranged group of criminals. -
Karl Aksel — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 12:54 AM)
In the film, it is not "indians" who are eating bugs but a deranged group of criminals.
In the film, it is not "indians" who are believed to be certain things but a deranged group of criminals.
They are never presented as "not Indians", nor were any at the banquet portrayed as "deranged". We don't even know if all the guests - who ate their fill - were part of the cult. They could just be visitors, like the British colonel. That is certainly what I always assumed these people were, and they did not think there was anything strange with the menu.
In the film, it is not "indians" we are making fun of, but a deranged group of criminals.
No. No attempt is ever made to portray the cult members as anything other than Indian Thuggees. The Thuggees were real - they even point that out in the film - and they were Indian people. However, the Thuggees in this movie are not portrayed with any historical accuracy. Kali, an important deity in India, is misrepresented, yet the movie gives no indication that this is not the normal way to worship Kali. And considering Kali is venerated
today
, this
does
reflect on Indian people. Just because the movie doesn't come across this way to
you
, doesn't mean it doesn't come across that way to others. -
thylacine80 — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 02:50 AM)
They are never presented as "not Indians", nor were any at the banquet portrayed as "deranged".
They are indians just as nazis were German or terrorists are arabics.
It doesn't mean it's "insulting" toward arabics or german, because of course arabic and german people are not terrorists or nazis.
And yes, of course people eating bugs, ripping people's heart, killing archeologists and practicing child slavery are "deranged". -
Arvin-G-Borkar — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 04:45 AM)
I think you are missing minority vs. majority.
Nazis WERE German. If the majority are that ethnic group, they WERE German. Now if the majority were some other ethnic group, say Polish, then they would not be German. In the same note, not all Germans were Nazis. If you wanted to make that claim, I would agree.
All I see here is some sort of denial that what the movie portrayed was not offensive. I mean obviously people were offended because the associations were very close to what a real culture thought, believed, etc.
THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR. COLLEGE FOOTBALL IS HERE!!! -
Karl Aksel — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 07:19 AM)
They are indians just as nazis were German or terrorists are arabics.
It doesn't mean it's "insulting" toward arabics or german, because of course arabic and german people are not terrorists or nazis.
Indeed, the Thuggees in Temple were not portrayed as representative of Indians in general. But they
were
Indians, and they were also portrayed as Kali worshippers. And Indy had every opportunity to point out that "this is not how Hindus venerate Kali, this isn't even how the Thuggees venerated Kali" - instead, he does just the opposite, confirming that this is what Thuggees did: "Nobody has seen this in a hundred years".
And yes, of course people eating bugs, ripping people's heart, killing archeologists and practicing child slavery are "deranged".
No, none of that is "deranged", that is a wrong use of the word. You may use "illegal" and "wrong according to existing norms" (and nowhere is the eating of bugs illegal, and some places perfectly common), but "deranged" denotes mental illness. -
Arvin-G-Borkar — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 04:41 AM)
It takes place in India. The maharaj is wearing a headdress of a Sikh. Sikhs are Indians. We cannot "deny" that Indians are not through association when these "group of criminals" dress just like them and believe in the same God, only the polar opposite of what Kali actually stands for.
It is the same as saying that there is a cult of Indians who believe in Kali, in bad light. They are still Indians. To make more sense, ISIS is still Middle Eastern; even though, they may not be true Muslims. To say they are not, take away how they dress, what they believe in, and how Mola Ram has a dot on his head. If you take those away, then maybe they are no way associated with Indians.
THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR. COLLEGE FOOTBALL IS HERE!!! -
thylacine80 — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 05:16 AM)
It takes place in India. The maharaj is wearing a headdress of a Sikh. Sikhs are Indians
Yep. Just the same way movies about nazis often take place in Germany, with nazis being Germans.
That doesn't mean it's "racist toward germans".
They are still Indians
Yep. And so what ?
Bad people in fictions are depicted as black, white, arabic, chinese, muslims, men, women.why would it be an exception for "indian" ? -
Arvin-G-Borkar — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 05:35 AM)
Of course it does. You are exploiting a negative aspect of German culture, just as thuggies were negative aspect of Indian culture. This was why Indians found it offensive. IT WAS a part of Indian culture, Indians would not deny that; however, if you are using it to also fictionally associate it with a God that they revere, even today, it is prejudice. They threw in Shiva and even as nothing bad was said about him, through association, it was in bad light.
I think it may be your sole opinion of what line one would have to cross for it to be prejudiced. There were obvious reasons why many Indians found it offensive. There is an Indian here, who found it offensive. The government of India found it offensive. Spielberg and Ford both thought it was offensive. lol
Because Indians were the most recent ethnic group to be introduced into Western culture. I have no idea if this was the first movie where Indians were used in Western media; however, Indians may not exactly have the best relations with the west either. IDK.
Going of the previous comment, what I think probably ticked them off was probably the British dude in the movie. They worked hard to gain their independence and then put back into the light of being rule again by the British.
With your last comment, you are comparing broader "races" with ethnic groups. I really hate the word "race". Blacks would mean African Americans and yes, they could be portraying them in bad light, however, they are more use to it. I mean blacks made the U.S. as well, involved in the culture. They believe they are a part of it, so they have a say when they are in movies. Arabic, maybe that is why their off shoot radical versions of them hate the West now. LOL Chinese are mostly seen in a good light. Jackie Chan? Who would no want to be seen as a fighting ninja?
It could also be that India has a competing Bollywood and so if they want to make fun off themselves, it should have been done under their studio and their direction.
British rule, for them, I am sure is a sore topic. This movie looks VERY comparable to India. Even the script was written with Indians, their customs, and a REAL INDIAN GODDESS in mind. Thuggie was a real rebel group and it was composed of both Hindus and Muslims, another sore topic.
THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR. COLLEGE FOOTBALL IS HERE!!! -
Blueghost — 9 years ago(November 13, 2016 10:58 AM)
Eh, you write what you know. I don't think anyone was putting down Indians in this film. Indy happens to be a white guy from the US who is thrown into some societies that are trying to play catch up with the west in terms of technology.
That's just the way it was back then. It wasn't as colorful nor over the top as in the movie, but movies are movies. Unless someone was putting down Indians or Chinese or whoever, I wouldn't sweat it.