I don't think that is it. She just puts two and two together
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kamakazi_5033 — 17 years ago(February 28, 2009 09:05 PM)
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Flor talking to his father for the last time (the guy's skin is completely covered in 3rd Degree burns and the Nazis still wouldn't kill him while he was still burning) - it was after that scene that I almost turned off the movie because it was just too intense
"I'm still here agnoid!" - Angus (TBS Version) -
aliza_tvito — 16 years ago(April 09, 2009 08:14 AM)
The burned man wasn't Flyora's father, but the village elder who tried to prevent the boy from searching for the guns (in the opening sequence: "So you're digging? still digging?"). This man knew that when the Germans will discover it, the people of his and Flyora's village will pay a terrible price - immediately.
Thanks God, I'm an Atheist! - Luis Bunuel -
jd_joslin — 16 years ago(September 11, 2009 05:17 PM)
Yes that scene was very disturbing. I think the yoddling music and the shot of the one German shaking his cheeks like he just had a shot of whiskey is something else. It really conveys a sense that the Einsatz Gruppen really got off on their handiwork.
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gareth-aled-davies — 16 years ago(October 02, 2009 06:07 PM)
Floria's facial expressions throughout the movie. They reminded me of Henry Spencer's in Eraserhead. But other than the things everyone else has said, the part where the german soldier is dragging the woman along by her hair, mademe feel ill. I wonder how they even acted that
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HwajangshilAgashi — 16 years ago(January 09, 2010 11:18 PM)
All shown in this film did happen in a real life - multiple times.
Really? German soldiers really acted in an utterly uncharacteristic way for the German army, drinking, wearing shorts eating crabs while enjoying the spectacle? And I assume that all things NOT shown in this film (like the atrocities commited by Soviets) never happened in real life. Correct?
Best part of the film: the big silly smile on Florya's face when he gets "drafted", because it is the strongest anti-war statement (considering what happens next) this film makes. Everything after that is just propaganda. -
HwajangshilAgashi — 16 years ago(January 19, 2010 06:27 PM)
He's not a troll but a little skinhead with a suitable IQ and chronic incontinence of speech.
I'll start with the last part and work myself forward
You may have a point when you say I have "chronic incontinence of speech". My posts can be a bit lengthy, because I want to ensure that I am expressing myself clearly; English isn't my first language either.
Good word, by the way! I had to look up the meaning of "incontinence", though I guessed that it meant something along the lines of "unable to contain".
Regarding my IQ, I'm not sure what to respond. I would consider my IQ suitable in general, though I'm not sure what the average IQ of a skinhead is. Not knowing you personally, I also cannot make any comments relating to your IQ, though I will say that insulting someone else's IQ is hardly an indication of having a very high one oneself.
Now to the "skinhead" bit. I feel personally insulted, not only because I am happy to say that I have a full head of hair, but because I consider myself a very open-minded person. My friends have all kinds of skin tones, from white to black and everything in between. I believe that all people are part of the human race, and that no race is better than any other. There are good and bad things in every culture, and yes, there are some cultures I generally dislike, and others I generally prefer. My posts have never been insulting of individuals or peoples, or claiming that one is superior to another. Yes, I have made posts pointing out heinous acts that were, and are, being committed by non-Germans. But I have done this to call you out on your hypocritical statements that promote hatred. Never have I claimed that any of these are any excuse for what the Nazis did, and in fact condemned their actions.
Lastly, although I strongly disagreed with the anti-German statements you have made (being myself not pro-German, but anti-anti-German), I even complimented you, including on the way you responded in a reasonable way without personal insults. I'm afraid you have just shown yourself for what you truly are, and that any derogatory comments you make about any one (person or peoples), are meaningless, as you have no moral high ground whatsoever.
I do hope that one day you will be able to overcome the brainwashing you have been through, and become the true opposite of what you are accusing me of being. -
HwajangshilAgashi — 16 years ago(January 19, 2010 06:01 PM)
No, I'm not a troll and I'm not sh.i.tt.ing you.
Have you seen the movie? Also, have you read through the message boards?
I admit that I could have gone a bit lighter on the sarcasm. But just in case you didn't read through the message posts, I'm having a bit of an issue with hannah_yacob's posts, which can only create more German hatred. Don't get me wrong - I'm not pro-German, but I am very strongly anti-anti-German in this case. If you've read my other posts you'll see that I've condemned Nazi-actions numerous times. On the other hand, it isn't right to make comment after comment claiming that everything shown in the movies is really true when it comes to what the Nazis did, especially when you are calling all German soldiers Nazis, which is false, while at the same time not admitting that the Soviets were not all that innocent as they are portrayed in the movie.
If you were offended by me saying that I thought the best part of the movie was the boy standing there with a silly ("sheepish" might have been a better word) smile on his face, then you got my intention all wrong. I find this movie to be extremely biased, and therefore not a very good anti-war movie. For me an anti-war movie has to show that EVERYONE loses, and that horrible things are committed against ALL sides. It has to allow for all sides to be human, and not for one side to be the innocent victims, and the other side to be subhuman monsters. Movies like that only create more hatred.
The boy having the big smile on his face, to me, had the most effect because you know that whatever he is expecting war to be, it won't. He is, in effect, a sheep being led to slaughter, and being led there willingly and with a (sheepish) smile on his face. Even though this stands in stark contrast to the "old" boy at the end of the movie, and makes a strong statement that there is nothing to look forward to in war, the Soviets are shown as innocent and only defending themselves, which is an outright lie and propaganda. -
HwajangshilAgashi — 16 years ago(January 19, 2010 05:42 PM)
Please, enlighten me!
What is most certainly eluding me is how this is an anti-war film when in fact it disproportionally portrays one group people as "good" and another group of people (who have very distinct personalities, making them more than just a stereotyped figure) as "evil", even though both committed terrible acts during that time in history. -
Snoogan — 16 years ago(January 20, 2010 10:44 PM)
I think you're just overly defensive of your german blood. Too much pride.
It's blinded your judgement of this film - I didn't see this at all as a pro-soviet anti-german movie? I just saw the horror of war, through a fictional story that is applied within the historically accurate context of the German blitzkrieg through Soviet Russia. I saw belorussian peasants being forced by their older peers to defend their village against invaders. It's true, not all german soldiers were nazis, but im pretty sure most Einsatzkommando troops (the german soldiers portrayed in this film) killed innocent villagers in the name of nazi germany as part of the DEATH SQUADS that made up the Einsatzgruppen. If they didn't depict these german soldiers as violent murderers then it would be historically inaccurate and wouldn't rightly depict the severe violence of war would it?
Soviets killed alot of innocent people too, whatever, this movie isn't telling that storyWe're not idiots - we know about the gulags and Stalin and the millions of deaths he caused, preaching on and on about it to us on these forums just makes you look like a bit of a sour dick mate,, you're not telling us anything new. This movie isn't about which side was worse.Quite frankly I don't know how you could portray that side of the soviets in this film and still remain historically accurate, seeing as for the most part the BELORUSSIAN characters are mostly peasants from small villages that have little or no affiliation with soviet killing squads or NKVDSo you're really barking up the wrong tree herePlus you've wasted a lot of time defending yourself in an argument that is really devoid of any point other than the underlying fact that you get upset when you see any depictions of germany's brutal past. Get over it. -
mac_alain — 16 years ago(January 22, 2010 02:59 PM)
I didn't see this at all as a pro-soviet anti-german movie?
If I were a Belorussian film director, I would not have been too concerned about presenting a "balanced" view. It is Nazi-Germany that marched into Russia, and not Russia into Nazi-Germany.
Primarily
, this is
a film that brings the horrors of war
to the screen, a fact that is being increasingly more recognised these days by the appearance of this masterpice in critics' best lists.
. . . but im pretty sure most Einsatzkommando troops (the german soldiers portrayed in this film) killed innocent villagers in the name of nazi germany. . .
No need to be just pretty sure, it's a fact.
. . . you've wasted a lot of time defending yourself in an argument that is really devoid of any point other than the underlying fact that you get upset when you see any depictions of germany's brutal past.
That appears to be the size of it making it appear that the poster verschiedenes has an "agenda". I have read a fair number of articles on this film, and have never come across anyone with the same take on it.
"Schindler's List", verschiedenes points out somewhere here, is a more "accurate" film, not recognising that it is completely different 'type' of film from "Come and See".
As an aside, I thought "
Der Untergang
" to be an excellent (10/10) film. -
HwajangshilAgashi — 16 years ago(January 23, 2010 06:02 PM)
If you are primarily trying to bring the horrors of war to the screen, then showing one side as demons and the other as angels is not helping any anti-war sentiment. It is helping in creating hate towards one side.
Yes, it is a fact that German soldiers, not even just Nazis, killed innocent villagers. I've been saying this all along!! BUT to keep pointing this out, calling them sub-human, etc., also doesn't help anti-war sentiment, and fuels hate that some people still feel against the Germans. If this was a German movie about the Soviets invading Berlin, and all Germans were shown as innocent victims, while all the Soviets were portrayed not just as mindless, order-following soldiers, but as sadistic sub-humans who get enjoyement out of every second of pain and humiliation they can inflict on someone, while posters were commenting on what a great movie it is - the greatest anti-war movie ever - and how those Soviests did all those things a million times, enjoyed them, etc., you can be sure that I would be calling foul the same way.
You just won't find this sort of film. Instead you'll find novels like "All Quiet on the Western Front", that portray soldiers on all sides as scared and 'innocent' HUMAN victims of the war. And movies such as "Die Bruecke" (1959 - I haven't had a chance to see the 2008 version yet), which wonderfully illustrates the pointless waste of human life. It actually portrays the "enemy" (the Americans) as far more human and caring than the German officers.
Yes, "Schindler's List" is a completely different kind of movie. I don't know that I called it more "accurate" (will have to look back at my comment), but I do think that it is a more balanced movie, and also a much stronger anti-war movie.
What is my agenda, pray tell? I have not made any 'pro-German' statements, repeatedly acknowledged the horror of the actions committed by the Germans, and only pointed out the horror of the actions committed by others making strong anti-German statements. I guess I do have an agenda; I want people to stop being so ignorant and making hateful and biased comments, completely ignoring the other side of what happened. -
HwajangshilAgashi — 16 years ago(January 23, 2010 05:42 PM)
First of all, I'm not German. Yes, I have "German blood". I also have blood from other nationalities flowing in my veins, including some Russian, I am sure, as my ancestors spent considerable time in Russia.
I do not at all get upset when I see depictions of Germany's brutal past. Wait, you'll probably twist those words into saying that I enjoy depictions of Germany's burtal past and cheer for the offenders. There's no doubt that German soldiers, whether they were Nazis or not, committed attrocities. I've been saying this all along in previous posts. The problem I have with this movie is that it gives the German soliders unique personalities, while the non-Germans (Belorussians, Soviets, whatever) perfectly blend into the background. If the movie wanted to portray German soldiers as evil mindless raping, killing machines then I would just write this movie off, like I write off any Hollywood propaganda portraying their enemies as generic human-shaped demons. See almost any movie about the Vietnam war. But because the Germans in this movie are given such unique personalities, to me the movie is saying that the soldiers were not just robots following orders, but that they were all crazy sub-humans who enjoyed making the poor innocent Soviets suffer by raping and burning them alive. Now, I am sure that some did enjoy it. But that's not the point. My point is that this movie has a very biased point of view. Even Hollywood movies manage to get in a glimpse of the horrors done by American soldiers at times.
More importantly, again, if you'd read any of the previous posts, I'm taking offense with not just how the movie is obviously biased, but with how some posters continually make hateful comments decrying how terrible the Germans were, while completely ignoring that this was not a one-sided war, and that attrocities were committed on all sides, so making such statements is only creating hatred. -
ssap — 16 years ago(February 03, 2010 10:02 AM)
verschiedenes you make very interesting points. I recently rented the WW2 movie "Joy Division", on many levels it works as a good companion-piece to "Come and See", you and some of the contributors on this board should watch it if you have not already.
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kayn47 — 16 years ago(February 17, 2010 05:00 AM)
I agree "JOY DIVISION" is a good companion piece to "COME AND SEE" except that 1/3 of the film is set after WWII in the cold-war periodother than that I agree, the SS Division is swapped for a Red Army Division / the Beylorussian boy and girl are swapped for a Silesian boy and girl. The two films are very simillar and each very accurate to Beylorussia 1943 and Silesia 1945.