The political intrigue is better than the romance
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mmccah06 — 21 years ago(July 09, 2004 11:25 AM)
If it was in fact Guilford who carved "Jane" on the wall of the cell (and it may have been b/c it was the cell he stayed in), it could have been for his mother who he was devoted to and whose name was also Janehe spent most of his time in prison supposdly making a tribute to his family before his execution.
~There's nothing like looking at your own history in the faces of your friends~ -
ArianwenPendragon — 21 years ago(March 30, 2005 07:00 PM)
My question to you would then be this: when you're writing something to your mother, do you begin it with 'Mother' or some variation thereof, or do you put her first name? I, for one, would never think of addressing my mother by her given name, so I would be more likely to carve 'Mother' or 'Mum', as I call her, than her first name. Therefore, is it more likely it was to his mother, his wife, or someone else entirely?
Regards,
Arianwen -
Jalea — 20 years ago(May 08, 2005 12:57 AM)
Another reports Lady Jane to be "very short and thin, but prettily shaped and graceful" with red hair and freckles.
http://home.earthlink.net/~elisale/janegrey.html
So maybe she was homely, and then again, maybe she was not. Perhaps it is easier to believe she was homely because of her reported religious, studious and austere nature?
"It's to be important, but it's more important to be nice" -
av_shevitz — 21 years ago(November 06, 2004 05:18 PM)
Lady Jane did not love Guilford Dudley, nor was she ready physically or emotionally for marriage at 15. That was entirely a celluloid fantasy world to entertain audiences.
Who knows if the marriage were consummated? Dudley's father ordered him to do it. Must have been odious, painful rape when a girl really doesn't want to copulate.
Her parents, goaded by the bible, beat the girl into submission an apt preparation for the physical cruelty of 16th century christian marriage. Take parental whippngs, take rape, take childbirth pain, take burning alive in some cases, take having your head cut off. Total submission and subjugation of females.
A brilliant but fragile little Protestant saint trapped in a brutal century.
Lady Jane is to be pitied, for if she lived today she'd have good education, freedom and human rights. Would probably attend Bob Jones University. and have an IQ of 150 and enjoy Mensa. Heck, I'd like to adopt her.
What intrigues me is, Lady Jane so tightly clutched the very religion that subjugated females. While not entirely to blame, the bible and christianity went hand in hand with 16th century barbarism to subjugate women, children, and eventually African slaves and native peoples.
On the scaffold, Lady Jane said "I die a christian woman."
True, but if the girl had died a humanist or atheist, she would not have died "kissing the rod that chastened her" throughout her life. In other words, sucking up to the religious element of oppression.
Also wonder if Lady Jane might have been pregnant on the scaffold? Just a thought if Guilford had had any conjugal Yuletide visits? Doubt it. But one thing's for sure: Lady Jane would have been only too willing to obey Genesis 3:16 and take her womanly punishment bearing children with the complete trappings of Tudor butchery and ignorance. Anything to make her precious "god" happy.Frances Gray: That vicious female dog was responsible for the torment of Lady Jane and the forced marriage.
Frances was a stout female dog, I believe, one who swung her fists readily. Thank goodness Lady Jane sent no final letter to dear Mother, though her Father received one. A most submissive sweet sounding letter the girl wrote to her paternal Master. (Father was beheaded later after a failed rebellion, and his severed skull is still in existence. Saw a photo of it).
Mother lifted no finger to aid her imprisoned daughter. Lady Jane was actually in danger of being burned alive, depending on Bloody Mary's fancy.
Would any decent Mother do nothing to aid her 15 year old daughter, if the child were in danger of being burned? Or beheaded? What savages they were back then.
Frances Gray flirted with some young peasant stud, I believe. The pair married, had a little fun, Frances oblivious to her daughter lying butchered in a pool of blood.
Then Frances, the female dog, soon died too. -
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msherow — 20 years ago(April 07, 2005 10:03 AM)
Interesting comments on the barbarism of the times. Thank goodness this treatment of women does not typify modern Christianity. Unfortunately, that type of savage behavior is exactly what women under Islam today undergoand worse. Islam is the scourge of humanity and about 500 years behind Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, regarding the treatment of women, children, not to mention infidels.
Toodles.
Marianne -
Forlorn_Rage — 14 years ago(January 23, 2012 12:56 AM)
Unfortunately, that type of savage behavior is exactly what women under Islam today undergoand worse. Islam is the scourge of humanity and about 500 years behind Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, regarding the treatment of women, children, not to mention infidels.
And yet it is the fastest growing religion in the world. I just don't understand why anyone, especially women, would (willfully) embrace such a religion in these times. -
megan_haithcock — 20 years ago(July 07, 2005 10:12 AM)
Please don't take this response as me telling you you're wrongI'm just responding to your post with my own thoughts.
While I would not have stood by and let my daughter die, Frances Grey did what many people would do in that situation, both then AND now: keep quiet for fear of suffering the same fate. And Frances was not oblivious to her daughter's deathbut what was she to do? Had she acted she would have met the same bloody end.
"Take parental whippings, take rape, take childbirth pain, take burning alive in some cases, take having your head cut off."
Many of these actions still happen today. The only thing that changed are the people and environments. I do not believe they were savages at all. While Jane's whipping was painful, she was, in her mother's mind, an obstinate child going against her parents' wishes and her duty to her family. Parents still disclipine their children, some in the same way, for disobeying them. Childbirth pain still exists. Women still die in childbirth all around the world. And while we don't burn people alive or cut their heads off much, we still electrocute and poison them. Our motives for doing so are just different.
"What intrigues me is, Lady Jane so tightly clutched the very religion that subjugated females. While not entirely to blame, the bible and christianity went hand in hand with 16th century barbarism to subjugate women, children, and eventually African slaves and native peoples. "
Different time. Different mindset. Women, for the most part, understood their place in life was different than that of men. The idea of being a 'good christian woman' was to adhere to the principals laid out in the Bible and to honor AND obey her lord and master (her husband). While I don't personally believe I am anyone's servant, I understand that ideas and self-image change with time.
"Lady Jane did not love Guilford Dudley, nor was she ready physically or emotionally for marriage at 15. That was entirely a celluloid fantasy world to entertain audiences. Who knows if the marriage were consummated? Dudley's father ordered him to do it. Must have been odious, painful rape when a girl really doesn't want to copulate."
She may have just layed there while it happened. It goes back to that whole different mindset. While she may not have wanted it, you were expected to comply with your husband's want of sex. Which is also why alot of the women had that 'pregnant' look. Due to the fact that pregnancy had alot more complications than they do now (due to modern medication) husbands would many times avoid having sex with a pregnant wife so not to upset the pregnancy. This would allow you to have a few moments of respit from your husband (if you didn't want to be with him.and many women actually did learn to love their husbands). The nobility and merchant class rarely married for love. It was all about social status. You may have been a knight's daughter.but if you play your cards right you can marry a baron and then your children would be the children of a baron. The peasantry really had more of the 'luxury' to marry 'where their hearts lie'. The marriages of the nobility were more about acquiring new land and forming treaties than love. Many times noble husbands and wives only had sex to create children. And then they would spend their time in separate beds, even separate homes. Sometimes not even in the same country.
And Frances' distance from her daughter was probably the result of her station. Jane, like most upper class children, had a nanny to watch over her. Most of the time, children weren't even breast-fed by their own mothers, but instead by a wet nurse. When a prince or princess was born, for example, they were setup with their own castle with their own household to attend to their needs. Imagine, a baby with their -own- servants. Prinesses Mary and Elizabeth had this kindof upbringing. So, in Jane's case, her mother was able to disclipine her in such a cold way because she didn't really raise her daughter thru the first several years of her life, and therefore had no tender maternal feelings toward her. If you remember in the movie, the nurse/nanny was fighting back tears thru the whole ordeal because -she- had raise Jane and probably loved her like a daughter. But because she was a servant, it was not her place to argue with Frances. And anyway, some women make better mothers than others, even in today's society.
I did enjoy the movie, despite some historical inaccuracies. But I think they did a great job portraying the people and attitudes of the time.