Sounds reasonable enough for a fantastic sci-fi fantasy kind of universe.
-
spencermalley935 — 9 years ago(December 22, 2016 11:15 PM)
A theory is a theory, until an official product released that debunks such one is presented the theory remains
So you consent that there's no concrete proof to back up this idea of Batman actually going back in time? Good on you. For me, it was a completely pointless detour that added nothing to the overall story.
but he did use one to get back to Gotham in Begins,
Doesn't mean he needs one to get back to Gotham city.
I believe the situation in discussion is more complicated than that I am afraid.
Not really. If a couple commando's can get into the city without setting off the bomb so can freaking Batman.
some heroes take a while to develop the personality they are most associated with
But Cavill's Superman doesn't have much of a personality at all, quite honestly. He's a personality vacuum in BVS and worser still were never let into his head on why he is that way. The DCEU Superman is a character we've really been given zero reason to actually invest in.
Batman doesn't have the look of satisfaction on his face
So It's A-Okay for Batman to murder criminals as long as he doesn't enjoy it?
Last I checked it wasn't her movie
Therefore, No reason for her to actually be there. Both Batman and Superman have received proper cinematic introductions and Wonder Woman gets this mess? Hows that fair?
Cardboard cutout of what? The character he is?
I meant that he has pretty much the exact same personality as a cardboard cut-out.
At least you agree Batman got development
Not much.
Bruce Wayne has never come across any fishy information about her background
Because Bruce had absolutely no reason to suspect her of any wrongdoing. You don't actually think "member of the LOS" would actually show up in background check, do you?
Lucius wasn't suspicious of her, does that make him an idiot?
She's also knows how to plan her movements pretty well for the most part.
As far as I'm concerned that applies to Talia as well.
Hence the diss in Return to the Batcave w. Adam West and Burt Ward.
How dare he mature and actually grow as a character am I right?
So why bring the DCEU up?
Because you said Bore-Fest and I thought BvS. I didn't mean it as a jab towards something I thought you loved. -
Darwinskid — 9 years ago(December 23, 2016 12:18 AM)
So you consent that there's no concrete proof to back up this idea of Batman actually going back in time? Good on you. For me, it was a completely pointless detour that added nothing to the overall story.
There's proof, I've presented it, hence why its a theory, and I've never said it was otherwise.
Doesn't mean he needs one to get back to Gotham city.
Did not say he needed one. I said plane travel is faster than other means, and statistically speaking it is.
Not really. If a couple commando's can get into the city without setting off the bomb so can freaking Batman.
Were those commandos the ones who got in while Bane and Talia and the league were being distracted by Batman and his resistance fighters? Refresh memory.
He's a personality vacuum in BVS and worser still were never let into his head on why he is that way.
Actually we have, and Cavill does best with what and who he's working with. Snyder's just more of a visualist/vicersalist than he is at selling emotion and Goyer's a very hit and miss screenwriter.
So It's A-Okay for Batman to murder criminals as long as he doesn't enjoy it?
No, I'm saying he's not Punisher levels of ruthless and barbarism as you make him out to be.
Therefore, No reason for her to actually be there. Both Batman and Superman have received proper cinematic introductions and Wonder Woman gets this mess? Hows that fair?
The subtitle of the movie is "Dawn of Justice" which suggests its planting the seeds for the Justice League. Wonder Woman's inclusion was another illustration of how big the universe is after its first installment which was entirely Superman centric. Wonder Woman is convinced to help fight for humanity again and assists in taking down Doomsday, her introduction sets the stage for her solo movie next year. What's done is done, and Wonder Woman is considered one of the better parts of the movie so they must've done something right given the hype her movie has going for it outside of the fact that it's a Wonder Woman movie which has never been successfully produced for the big screen.
Not much.
You still agreed. Little is still a percentage.
Because Bruce had absolutely no reason to suspect her of any wrongdoing. You don't actually think "member of the LOS" would actually show up in background check, do you?
Lucius wasn't suspicious of her, does that make him an idiot?
Right, because there clearly is nothing at all fishy about Tate's background, if she's that involved of a business partner testimonials, legitimate file data that is confirmed by constitutions they are from will likely be the topic of discussion during tense business meetings, unless Talia wanted to be very quiet and say nothing at all, i.e. practically a 3D painting in the office.
As far as I'm concerned that applies to Talia as well.
Talia's not going around dressing up as a masked vigilante and trying to avoid making news around the Gotham scene beyond what her nightly activities bring. But go ahead, keep telling yourself they're exactly the same to help you sleep better.
How dare he mature and actually grow as a character am I right?
Stopping being Batman doesn't make him mature or really grow as a character, at least with how its presented in the movie. The city is doing seemingly fine( Though, you know, its clearly not going to be cleansed of all crime)? Good, retire for good and hey there's this wild chick who clearly wants to get it on so better fake death, assume this cop dude will be a sufficient replacement, and live a fairly tale ending. Some people would view that as being pretty selfish, just saying.
TDKR"S ending is by and large considered to be extremely satisfying, not taking the close-minded purist's into account.
I'm afraid you are really exaggerating things here, I know off hand some people who liked the movie but thought the ending was pretty bullsh!t or alright but totally not what they would've wanted to have happened. If the ending is as loved as you make it out to be it wouldn't have been joked about in such a film. "Holy unsatisfying ending!" - Robin, the boy wonder.
Because you said Bore-Fest and I thought BvS. I didn't mean it as a jab towards something I thought you loved.
I'm talking about recently in the discussion, not the start of it. And I believe the first time we touched base on the DCEU I was not exactly singing praises for it.
COOKIES AND MILK!-Ed -
spencermalley935 — 9 years ago(December 23, 2016 11:52 AM)
There's proof, I've presented it,
The lack of Panda eyes? That's your "concrete evidence" that it wasn't a vision and that he was transported through time and took the place of this "Mad Max" Batman? This is getting even more confusing.
Were those commandos the ones who got in while Bane and Talia and the league were being distracted by Batman and his resistance fighters?
Bruce was in the pit when the commando's tried to enter Gotham.
Actually we have
We do not. It's a recurring criticism of BVS that Superman is a non-entity throughout the entire movie and it's pretty spot-on. No offense meant to Cavill but he is the most boring, uninspiring version of Superman we've seen yet.
I'm saying he's not Punisher levels of ruthless and barbarism
All right, He's a K-Mart Punisher, not as brutal as the actual one but still essentially aping his methods.
the subtitle of the movie is "Dawn of Justice" which suggests its planting the seeds for the Justice League.
Setting up future movies is not a justification for pointless characters nor pausing the movie for the sake of watching a flash drive full of cameos. This is on the level of TASM 2, maybe even worse.
I'm happy you received geek gasms from watching the trinity come together and I really wish I could have as well but it rang hollow for me. We have a brooding, melancholic Superman, a Batman without morals or integrity and a Wonder Woman who's introduced into the movie trying to get a picture.
Little is still a percentage.
Take what you can get I suppose.
Right, because there clearly is nothing at all fishy about Tate's background
Honestly, No. There really isn't. She's been a long-time board member of Bruce's company with ringing endorsements from both Fox and Alfred and the clean energy reactor was her project. What reason does Bruce have to actually be suspicious of her?
Talia's not going around dressing up as a masked vigilante and trying to avoid making news
Talia's not making news period, So there.
Stopping being Batman doesn't make him mature or really grow as a character,
What sounds more mature to you? Eventually coming to terms with your pain and losses, learning to appreciate life again and actually deciding to you know live it or refusing to let go of your pain and setting yourself on self-destructive path that will surely lead to your death?
( Though, you know, its clearly not going to be cleansed of all crime)?
In The Dark Knight, Bruce was ready and willing to give up being Batman and hand the keys to the kingdom over to Harvey Dent. Could Harvey Dent "cleanse the city of all crime"? Would it immediately be a crime-free utopia with Harvey Dent at the helm?
Bruce Wayne didn't set out to spend the rest of his life beating up purse-snatchers and harassing street crime while the rest of the city continued to rot. His intention was to create a symbol that could inspire the people to stand up to the corruption and by the end of TDKR, He achieves that while leaving behind the ability for Blake to become a new hero if the need ever arises which it probably won't be for awhile.
Some people would view that as being pretty selfish, just saying.
Replace "selfish" with well-deserved. Especially since he's leaving Gotham a much better place than when he left it.
Holy unsatisfying ending!" - Robin, the boy wonder.
And yet the youtube comments about TDKR ending say nothing but the exact opposite.
If the ending is as loved as you make it out to be it wouldn't have been joked about in such a film.
Emphasis on the word "Joke" as in not something to be taken seriously. -
Darwinskid — 9 years ago(December 23, 2016 03:23 PM)
The lack of Panda eyes? That's your "concrete evidence" that it wasn't a vision and that he was transported through time and took the place of this "Mad Max" Batman? This is getting even more confusing.
I recall presenting more than that, anyway I don't see why you're acting like I'm being the village idiot here people create fan theories all the time, look at Star Wars, oh wait you don't give a damn about that franchise, as far as your concerned it must be Batman related for you to really care( And yes, you've said such before).
Bruce was in the pit when the commando's tried to enter Gotham.
Yeah, and they were warned not to step another foot or the bomb would go off.
We do not. It's a recurring criticism of BVS that Superman is a non-entity throughout the entire movie and it's pretty spot-on. No offense meant to Cavill but he is the most boring, uninspiring version of Superman we've seen yet.
Cavill's Superman feels angst in BvS because he is unsure if he can live up to everybody's expectations, from both of his Fathers to the rest of his family, friends, and the people of the Earth. It's an anxiety a lot of people share in real life, actually, regardless of age and experience.
All right, He's a K-Mart Punisher, not as brutal as the actual one but still essentially aping his methods.
DoDo you even know what "aping" means?
Setting up future movies is not a justification for pointless characters nor pausing the movie for the sake of watching a flash drive full of cameos. This is on the level of TASM 2, maybe even worse.
But Wonder Woman wasn't a pointless character, she helped established it was a larger universe in the DC movies and saved Batman's life, and also helped defeat Doomsday so that he wouldn't cause more harm to human beings. Also, that information was sent to Diana via email, not a flash drive. You would know if you paid attention to the movie more, but if I may what exactly is so bad about Batman and Wonder Woman learning about other metahumans via top secret computer filing systems? It's not the route I would've taken but let's be real here after what happened in Man of Steel and going by Amanda Waller's line about Superman being a beacon for other fantastical beings coming out of the wood works wouldn't somebody or something try keeping tabs on them? I mean, there are quite a few organizations based around that in the comic books.
I'm happy you received geek gasms from watching the trinity come together and I really wish I could have as well but it rang hollow for me. We have a brooding, melancholic Superman, a Batman without morals or integrity and a Wonder Woman who's introduced into the movie trying to get a picture.
"Brooding" and "melancholic" imply pretty much the same thing. BvS Batman didn't have absolutely zero moralism in his body and didn't have zero integrity. You still haven't explained to me why Wonder Woman trying to get a picture back is a bad thing, all you've done is say "oh why, why, why did they do this for such an iconic character?" but not elaborated why its offensive.
Honestly, No. There really isn't. She's been a long-time board member of Bruce's company with ringing endorsements from both Fox and Alfred and the clean energy reactor was her project. What reason does Bruce have to actually be suspicious of her?
If she's a long-time board member with the company and if the clean energy reactor was her project background info and testimonials from other parties outside of Wayne Enterprises can be brought to attention before development can go forward. What if she said she went to a specific college for her education and one board member or an associate of one went there and discovered there is no record or proof that she ever stepped foot on their doors? There's a lot of things like that are bound to be up for debate if someone like that was so involved with a company, just saying. If Blake could deduce Batman's identity for the most bullsh!t of reasons it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to suspect Talia of anything before the sh!t hit the fan.
Talia's not making news period, So there.
Yes she is, business news.
What sounds more mature to you? Eventually coming to terms with your pain and losses, learning to appreciate life again and actually deciding to you know live it or refusing to let go of your pain and setting yourself on self-destructive path that will surely lead to your death?
Except we only got a very sugar coated version of all that, and in the end product it only made Batman seem a bit selfish. There is also little evidence to support the notion that Nolan's Batman would've eventually gone down a bad road if he had continued to fight crime. Overcoming PTSD is one thing, but if its that engraved into your psyche since childhood it'll take a lot more than that to simply move on from it. I'm afraid you are totally overselling what Nolan was trying to do than how it actually came off as in the movie.
In The Dark Knight, Bruce was ready and willing to give u -
spencermalley935 — 9 years ago(December 23, 2016 07:00 PM)
I recall presenting more than that,
For the life of me, I can't recall anything like that. The apokolips sequence being poorly explained as to what it actually is isn't my main issue, It's that it's pointless and confusing.
Yeah, and they were warned not to step another foot or the bomb would go off.
I'm not talking about those soldiers, I'm talking abou the commando squad that Bane hung out for all the world to see, the ones who snuck in on the supply truck.
Cavill's Superman feels angst in BvS because he is unsure if he can live up to everybody's expectations, from both of his Fathers to the rest of his family, friends, and the people of the Earth.
That's a more thorough explanation than what the actual movie gave us. Even then, It's no justification for making him as thoroughly lifeless and uninteresting as Snyder's made him.
Do you even know what "aping" means?
To imitate the behavior or manner of (someone or something), especially in an absurd or unthinking way.
But Wonder Woman wasn't a pointless character,
Uh Yeah, She pretty much was. You could adjust events so that she wouldn't really be needed in the Doomsday fight at all, All she really does is bind Doomsday with her lasso which Superman really doesn't need to impale Doomsday with the spear. In fact her inclusion actually raises the question, Why didn't Wonder Woman use the spear to kill Doomsday, It would have made more sense.
to suspect Talia of anything before the sh!t hit the fan
Again, What reason does Bruce have to suspect Talia of anything? What's so inherently suspicious about her?
but if I may what exactly is so bad about Batman and Wonder Woman learning about other metahumans via top secret computer filing systems?
The fact that the entire movie is paused just so Wonder Woman can watch individual trailers for upcoming DC movies is perfectly acceptable to you?
You still haven't explained to me why Wonder Woman trying to get a picture back is a bad thing
Underwhelming is the better word for it I feel just like the Justice League trailer E-Mail.
the end product it only made Batman seem a bit selfish.
Leaving behind a city that's caused him nothing but pain a better place so he can live a full and happy life is "selfish" to you, Really? I guess Alfred's incredibly selfish as well because that's what he wanted for Bruce.
There is also little evidence to support the notion that Nolan's Batman would've eventually gone down a bad road if he had continued to fight crime.
Aside from the obvious "ruining any chance of Bruce Wayne having a meaningful life" you mean. Nolan's Batman would've most certainly continued fighting crime if not for the extenuating circumstances that resulted from him protecting Harvey's reputation.
but if its that engraved into your psyche since childhood
Nolan's Bruce Wayne never made a childhood vow to spend the rest of his life warring against all criminals, He wished revenge against one man once that chance was taken from him, He was shown the bigger problem that plagued all of Gotham city (corruption) and set out to create a symbol that would live beyond him. TDKR follows that line of thinking to it's conclusion
I'm afraid you are totally overselling what Nolan was trying to do than how it actually came off as in the movie.
That's exactly what you're doing for Snyder in terms of Batman and Superman's so-called "character arcs"
Part of Batman's appeal is his never-ending quest to fight crime,
Well this isn't Millers Batman or Gaiman's Batman, This is Nolan's Batman who from the very beginning of the series has established a more sensible and reasonable goal for himself than to spend the rest of his life harassing street crime. So the ending Nolan chose to go with in no way contradicts what was originally established. There have been Elseworlds comics in the past that had Bruce Wayne retire and pass the mantle on and the whole "Bruce Wayne is just a mask" angle has been deconstructed multiple times throughout the comics.
"Batman may die, but Bruce Wayne? Never
This quote from Chris Nolan himself sums up everything for me.
For me, The Dark Knight Rises (2012) is specifically and definitely the end of the Batman story as I wanted to tell it, and the open-ended nature of the film is simply a very important thematic idea that we wanted to get into the movie, which is that Batman is a symbol. He can be anybody, and that was very important to us. Not every Batman fan will necessarily agree with that interpretation of the philosophy of the character, but for me it all comes back to the scene between Bruce Wayne and Alfred in the private jet in Batman Begins (2005), where the only way that I could find to make a credible characterization of a guy transforming himself into Batman is if it was as a necessary symbol, and he saw himself as a catalyst for change and therefore it was a temporary process, maybe a five-year plan that would be enforced for symbolically encouraging the good of Gotham to take back their city. To me, for t -
Darwinskid — 9 years ago(December 23, 2016 09:05 PM)
For the life of me, I can't recall anything like that. The apokolips sequence being poorly explained as to what it actually is isn't my main issue, It's that it's pointless and confusing.
That's too bad, because I recall presenting a lot more information to support it before the panda eyes thing here.
I'm not talking about those soldiers, I'm talking abou the commando squad that Bane hung out for all the world to see, the ones who snuck in on the supply truck.
That raises another point about TDKR - Boy, do Talia and Bane like to procrastinate and talk big, but don't go al the way with their plans.
That's a more thorough explanation than what the actual movie gave us. Even then, It's no justification for making him as thoroughly lifeless and uninteresting as Snyder's made him.
The actual movie does present it. And secondly, the character is not portrayed as "thoroughly lifeless", uninteresting or interesting is on the viewer.
To imitate the behavior or manner of (someone or something), especially in an absurd or unthinking way.
Good, then you know its not exactly the case.
Uh Yeah, She pretty much was. You could adjust events so that she wouldn't really be needed in the Doomsday fight at all, All she really does is bind Doomsday with her lasso which Superman really doesn't need to impale Doomsday with the spear. In fact her inclusion actually raises the question, Why didn't Wonder Woman use the spear to kill Doomsday, It would have made more sense.
Not quite, she saved Batmans life and aided in fight against Doomsday, as the movie demonstrated not much earlier Superman going head to head with Doomsday alone didn't get the job done on its own. Superman felt it was his responsibility to impale Doomsday because they are created from Kryptonian technology and the body of Zod was used as pretty much its earliest stage of development, and we all know what he did in the predecessor.
The fact that the entire movie is paused just so Wonder Woman can watch individual trailers for upcoming DC movies is perfectly acceptable to you?
No, I'm asking why its so bad. The movie had more than one storyline going on and one of the subplots was the mystery surrounding Wonder Woman which ties into Lex Luthor's shady behind the scenes work, which is more prominent in the general story.
Again, What reason does Bruce have to suspect Talia of anything? What's so inherently suspicious about her?
She's a wealthy, long time business associate who starts a program at the company but obviously doesn't have a sound background - Even if Talia used technology to provide more weigh to Miranda Tate's persona the question of legitimacy still lies with the lack of physical proof she ever attended so and so college and worked with so and so, x number of businesses and had so and so as family and friends. Some of this information can be called on during tense business meetings and social interactions.
Underwhelming is the better word for it I feel just like the Justice League trailer E-Mail.
Fair enough.
Leaving behind a city that's caused him nothing but pain a better place so he can live a full and happy life is "selfish" to you, Really? I guess Alfred's incredibly selfish as well because that's what he wanted for Bruce.
Yes and yes. Especially considering Gotham wasn't that bad to Bruce, if it was that bad why even bother spending time being its dark knight anyway if it brings nothing bad things to his life?
Aside from the obvious "ruining any chance of Bruce Wayne having a meaningful life" you mean. Nolan's Batman would've most certainly continued fighting crime if not for the extenuating circumstances that resulted from him protecting Harvey's reputation.
Being Batman's not without its consequences.
Nolan's Bruce Wayne never made a childhood vow to spend the rest of his life warring against all criminals, He wished revenge against one man once that chance was taken from him, He was shown the bigger problem that plagued all of Gotham city (corruption) and set out to create a symbol that would live beyond him. TDKR follows that line of thinking to it's conclusion
Well you are right about that, I'll give you that much.
Well this isn't Millers Batman or Gaiman's Batman, This is Nolan's Batman who from the very beginning of the series has established a more sensible and reasonable goal for himself than to spend the rest of his life harassing street crime. So the ending Nolan chose to go with in no way contradicts what was originally established. There have been Elseworlds comics in the past that had Bruce Wayne retire and pass the mantle on and the whole "Bruce Wayne is just a mask" angle has been deconstructed multiple times throughout the comics.
You're right, still doesn't make the approach of it great and dandy though.
That's exactly what you're doing for Snyder in terms of Batman and Superman's so-called "character arcs"
If that were true, I wouldn't say Snyder is more of a visualist/viceralist than a worthwhile story teller and basically a g -
spencermalley935 — 9 years ago(December 28, 2016 10:04 PM)
because I recall presenting a lot more information to support it before the panda eyes thing here.
Well clearly it wasn't very explicit.
Bane like to procrastinate and talk big, but don't go al the way with their plans.
They want to draw Bruce and Gotham's torture out for as long as physically possible, the bomb exploding is only the cherry on top.
Still beats whatever the hell Luthor was trying to do in BVS.
The actual movie does present it
Than why exactly is Superman's lack of character development a recurring criticism of this movie? You literally know nothing about Superman you didn't already know from MOS.
the character is not portrayed as "thoroughly lifeless"
No charm, no charisma, does nothing aside from punching things while looking kind of angry. Seems pretty lifeless to me.
she saved Batmans life and aided in fight against Doomsday,
So? She helped in an action sequence that could've been arranged in a way that didn't need her involvement at all.
No, I'm asking why its so bad.
It pauses the entire movie and serves no purpose within the general story except to advertise future DC movies.
but obviously doesn't have a sound background
You don't know that. She could have easily forged an entire background using her resources and even then as I've said repeatedly she has done nothing suspicious, nothing worrying and nothing to give either Fox nor Bruce probable cause to suspect her of any wrongdoing.
Yes and yes.
Okay, maybe "nothing but pain" was a bit much but it plays into what Alfred said earlier "There'd be nothing for you here but pain and tragedy".
Being Batman's not without its consequences.
Of course, That's a given but considering the nature of the world TDK trilogy is set in. Bruce obviously can't be Batman forever considering the wear and tear it would place on his body.
Well you are right about that, I'll give you that much.
Thank you
still doesn't make the approach of it great and dandy though.
That doesn't automatically make it bad either.
I wouldn't say Snyder is more of a visualist/viceralist than a worthwhile story teller
Which in my humble opinion is why he's ill-suited for putting together this Dc Cinematic Universe.
Dude's most likely to get his butt kicked the first night he patrols the city
Not if he's taken the time to train himself which he will most likely do before that.
but that doesn't mean every aspect of it is loved to pieces and is null and void of any criticism.
Never made the argument that it was just that the ending is usually considered one of the most satisfying parts of the majority by and large and a throwaway joke made by a direct to DVD animated movie in no way reflects the majority opinion. -
MyloMan30 — 9 years ago(July 16, 2016 08:47 PM)
Out of all the earlier movies and the Nolan movies, Batman the Animated Series and this movie are still how i "view" Batman.
I like all different versions of Batmans and his villains, but this Batman "universe" is still my favorite.