No sympathy for Tom and John
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Sleepers
Edward_de_Vere — 10 years ago(December 17, 2015 07:01 AM)
Naturally, we have sympathy for Tom and John as children for what they went through, and if their sole crime had been the murder of the pedophile guard, I would understand everyone's desire to let them get away with their crime.
The fact is that Tom and John were guilty of many other murders, and most of their victims probably did nothing to deserve their fate. For example, it's mentioned that one of them murdered a man for cutting in front of him in line or being rude to him.
As far as I'm concerned, Tom and John deserved to die or to spend the rest of their lives in prison, not for killing the guard, but for the rest of their crimes. If it took killing a pedophile to have them finally put away or executed, so be it (it would be a matter of killing two, or rather three, birds with one stone that needed killing), and Father Bobby was a fool for committing perjury on their behalf. Father Bobby lied to let two dangerous murderers back on the street to kill again, and their next victims wouldn't be pedophile guards any more than their previous victims were.
In other words, the film's story the alleged moral dilemma would have been more effective if Tom and John weren't thugs and if killing the guard in revenge was the only murder they were responsible for. -
zsabellaa — 10 years ago(December 21, 2015 08:49 AM)
We are supposed to feel sorry for them because they were not gonna be street punks, killing people randomly if its not for the tragedy of Wilkinson. It is mentioned during the movie that John was really wanted to be a priest, they were both leading to a good path, but the abuse and rape wrecked their believe in God.
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Edward_de_Vere — 10 years ago(December 22, 2015 06:51 AM)
We are supposed to feel sorry for them because they were not gonna be street punks, killing people randomly if its not for the tragedy of Wilkinson. It is mentioned during the movie that John was really wanted to be a priest, they were both leading to a good path, but the abuse and rape wrecked their believe in God.
As I said, I feel sorry for them as children, but being abused as a kid shouldn't be a get out of jail free card for anyone. Most people who are sexually abused as kids don't grow up to be street thugs and murderers.
You can sympathize with what happened to somebody as a kid, but still acknowledge the fact that once that person commits a murder, he deserves incarceration or death just like anybody else. The fact that Tom and John killed several innocent people rather than just Nokes erased any sympathy I may have had for them. One of them killed a man for cutting ahead of him in line, and got away with it. If the film's premise was for us to see their acquittal through perjury as a triumph, it failed in its goal. As far as I'm concerned, Tom and John deserved to die as much as Nokes did (and incidentally, if you found out that Nokes himself was probably molested as a kid, as many pedophiles are, would that make you sympathetic towards him? Probably not, so why sympathize with Tom and John)? -
buildersent — 10 years ago(January 04, 2016 04:47 AM)
There is no sympathy for Tom and John.
Though, the murder of nokes was not something to punish them for. This is separate from their other murders which if they were caught, nobody would have helped them get away with it.
Dr. Who is to entertainment what Special Olympics is to athleticism. -
hannahbtcgte — 10 years ago(January 29, 2016 11:55 PM)
If you found out that Nokes himself was molested as a kid, as many pedophiles are, would that make you sympathetic towards him? Probably not, so why sympathize with Tom and John?
An interesting point, I would - and kind of do - agree, but I think the main difference is that they became murderers instead of child molesters, which is still terrible, but doesn't tend to anger people quite as much. -
riverwalk — 9 years ago(April 30, 2016 01:54 AM)
''being abused as a kid shouldn't be a get out of jail free card for anyoneonce that person commits a murder, he deserves incarceration or death just like anybody else.''
absolutely agree, too often we try to justify peoples' poor behaviour for their past lives but yes a tragic childhood or life cannot excuse it. -
silver_snail14 — 10 years ago(January 24, 2016 08:36 AM)
The abuse they suffered drove them onto that path. I agree that it's a pretty weak justification, but they probably got into crime as soon as they left Wilkinson's and never turned back.
I used to be darker, then I got lighter, then I went dark again. -
Livana_Faolan — 9 years ago(August 10, 2016 08:16 PM)
Michael and Lorenzo went through the same things as John and Tommy. Yet they managed to avoid becoming heartless, cruel, indiscriminate murderers. So, that, "but they were abused," excuse doesn't fly.
"Never mind walking a mile in my shoes. Try thinking a day in my head." -
silver_snail14 — 9 years ago(August 11, 2016 05:33 AM)
I'm not excusing their behavior. I'm just saying that the abuse most definitely played in part in shaping the men they later became. They didn't have Shakes's intellect or Michael's courage, they were just soft vulnerable boys, and I think it's fair to say that they might have chosen different paths if not for the abuse they suffered. I'll admit that I'm much more sympathetic to the boys they once were than the murderers they eventually became. They committed many terrible acts (although the murder of Nokes was justified in my eyes) and both paid for it in the end by dying painful, untimely deaths. That seems fair to me.
You who wish to conquer pain, you must learn to serve me well. -
Sugarminx — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 09:46 PM)
Michael and Lorenzo went through the same things as John and Tommy. Yet they managed to avoid becoming heartless, cruel, indiscriminate murderers
You can't expect everyone to react in the same way in a particular situation, because people are inherently different.
I am by no means suggesting that we excuse everything, but I think a little understanding and compassion can be far more helpful than stridently clutching our pearls and tut tutting like a bunch of old hens
"Puss rules!"
"It's Pus" -
debl51 — 9 years ago(February 10, 2017 07:11 PM)
Michael and Lorenzo went through the same things as John and Tommy. Yet they managed to avoid becoming heartless, cruel, indiscriminate murderers. So, that, "but they were abused," excuse doesn't fly.
Well, we don't know the full extent of their family life, upbringing and other important factors. In any case, two human beings can go two different ways, not the same, even with similar lives. -
Airjordan2288 — 10 years ago(February 26, 2016 01:18 PM)
In the book, before they stopped off at that bar to eat dinner and have a couple of drinks they were on their way to rob a drug dealer and cut off his head. Running into Nokes saved the drug dealers life. John even says it in the mirror of the bathroom looking in the mirror. "Today was your lucky day (insert drug dealers name as I forgot what it was)
" Tell me momwhen your little girl's on the slabwhere will it tickle you?" -
kenny-164 — 10 years ago(March 11, 2016 12:55 PM)
The OP makes an interesting point. But they also did the world a favor killing Nokes. Why should they go down for that?
I thought this was a pretty good movie, btw. Great cast. But the story was kind of obvious and dreary at the same time. I gave it a 7. -
riverwalk — 9 years ago(April 30, 2016 02:03 AM)
''But they also did the world a favor killing Nokes. Why should they go down for that?''
i see your point and in theory that's perfectly fine but yes they should go down for it in the bigger picture and for the sake of morality and safety. For instance they murdered a man because he abused them, terrible I know but then if they get away with it why shouldn't others get away with it?
And then where do you draw the line? Why should it be ok to murder somebody if they sexually abuse you but not ok if they assault you, bully you, sleep with your girlfriend, or steal from you? It would be chaos and anarchy. We'd all be going around killing each others over transgressions and you can't jail one and not the other. -
TheCommenteer — 9 years ago(July 22, 2016 09:31 AM)
People don't have to justify their support for one over another. Their views are their own, nobody is talking about changing laws here. It's a one off instance and people support it. End of story.
Personally I think they should be locked away, but I felt neither positive or negative about them not going to prison for this. They are already suspects in their other crimes and as far as I recall had already done time. -
fiatlux-1 — 10 years ago(April 01, 2016 12:30 PM)
I agree with the OP in the sense that Tom & John lost some of my sympathy when I learned how they turned out.
Yes it was horrific what they went through, they couldn't escape that without some emotional & physical damage.
But what they became was their CHOICE. All humans have free will.
The fact that a couple of their cohorts became good guys fighting FOR other good guys proves this.
I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus.
Didn't he discover America?
Penfold, shush. -
sunchick116-872-583383 — 9 years ago(June 20, 2016 04:01 PM)
I don't think you can simplify anything that happened in this film as a 'choice'. it was all a consequence of trauma and PTSD. when you're dealing with those kind of mental issues, it's almost as if it isn't you talking.
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debl51 — 9 years ago(February 10, 2017 07:06 PM)
I don't think you can simplify anything that happened in this film as a 'choice'. it was all a consequence of trauma and PTSD. when you're dealing with those kind of mental issues, it's almost as if it isn't you talking.
I do think there are mitigating circumstances when people are called to judgement. I think it's worse that a "normal" person decides to kill for greed or selfish reasons,than a couple guys whose childhood was hell, and had affected them.
A persons background is a factor in how they deal with life, and boys traumatized like they were would have had really bad issues affecting them and their outlook on life. -
debl51 — 9 years ago(February 10, 2017 07:08 PM)
I don't think you can simplify anything that happened in this film as a 'choice'. it was all a consequence of trauma and PTSD. when you're dealing with those kind of mental issues, it's almost as if it isn't you talking.
I do think there are mitigating circumstances when people are called to judgement. I think it's worse that a "normal" person decides to kill for greed or selfish reasons,than a couple guys whose childhood was hell, and had affected them.
A persons background is a factor in how they deal with life, and boys traumatized like they were would have had really bad issues affecting them and their outlook on life.