3 plot issues which rely on pure coincidence
-
ejlearman28 — 10 years ago(June 28, 2015 05:44 AM)
ok, I'm not Ed Exley's moral journey has much to do with Gettes, Gettes puts himself in an extremely precarious position on the assumption that Cross won't kill him in the house he did with Hollis.
What Gettes does realise at that point is exactly how rich and powerful Cross actually, and wrongly assumes in the end that his ex-partners on the force will listen to him at the final showdown. I don't see Cross tries to implicate in Hollis murder except with the phone scratched in the wall where the fake Mulray woman was found dead.
Gettes and his ex-partner clearly don't like each other, but I don't Cross trying to setup Gettes with fake Mulray woman's death or Hollis's murder rings true. Cross doesn't know much about Gettes or his partner, and after Dunaway's death, rather than arrest Gettes for the murders, which Cross probably wanted, they just let him go.
Regardless of this, or Gettes heroic moral journey and the quest for the truth, I still don't see how going to meet Cross alone and unarmed makes any sense. Cross did have him followed and threatened to kill him several times afterall. -
chninlp — 10 years ago(June 28, 2015 08:20 AM)
I'm not saying Exley's moral journey is similar to Gittes. I'm just saying that people praise Exley's (and White/Vincennes) character development and it can't beat Gittes.'
After Gittes meets with Cross for lunch, with Gittes briefly telling Cross about the lead investigator, Escobar (his old partner) , Cross then tips off Escobar to Ida Sessions' house with photos Gittes took of Hollis and the girl planted at her house.
More importantly, again, Gittes is not a hero at all, he is simply the main protagonist of the film.
Like I said, if you want an answer to why he confronts Cross at the end, along with the numerous other mistakes he makes in the film, listen to HIS LAST WORDS in the film. -
ejlearman28 — 10 years ago(June 28, 2015 10:19 AM)
Can't you just tell me what his last words were, whatever they were it must've been ambiguous. All I remember is Gettes saying to Cross 'what can you buy that you don't already own?' and Cross replying 'the future, Mr Gettes!'.
Off topic here, but I'd been reading Syd Field's analysis of Chinatown in his book Screenplay, who rates the film's script highly and uses it to demonstrate what makes a great film.
In the original script, Robert Towne has Gettes say to Curly in the opening scene after Curly expresses his desire to kill his wife, 'You gotta be rich to get away with murder in this town, you gotta have money, you gotta have class. What makes you think you got that kindof power?!'. This dialogue doesn't appear in the film the way it does in the script and instead is moved to some other scene, but I can't remember who says it.
The only other dialogue I remember from the end scene is Gettes screaming at Escobar in front of Cross, 'You gotta listen to me, he killed Mulray because of the water thing!', but Escobar silences him.
The films iconic and enigmatic final words are then muttered, 'It's Chinatown, Jake. Forget it.'
I think you might have given me an excuse to go back and watch dvd with the Robert Towne and David Fincher commentary, which I've been meaning to do for some time. And I also feel I've the line from rational cineophile to terminal film geek. -
MrRazorz — 9 years ago(July 19, 2016 01:28 PM)
Spacey character is contradictory, in the jail riot scene he attacks one of the prisoners who WE, the audience, and he the corrupt cop know are probably not guilty of the crime they're accused of. We see him cynically taking bribes from the start, in cahoots with the with sleazy reporter, and took a bribe of $50 to setup an actor who until his death he could care less about. I understand he feels responsible for the actor's death, it's just contrived that he pairs up with Guy Pearce who he partly blames who damaging his reputation with the TV show. I get how he should be grateful to Pearce for the Night Owl collar and publicity, but his entire position seems to switch after hearing the Rollo Tamatsi story and then Pearce asks him why he became a cop and he replies 'I don't remember'.
It's not quite as abrupt as that. Even at the start of the film, when they're setting up the "Movie Premier Pot Bust" together, Vincennes seems a little disgusted with Hudgens and the business he's in. That's also where he first becomes aware of Fleur-de-Lis, a name that comes up a little later in his work with Vice. At first he sees Fleur-de-Lis as an opportunity to "make a major case" and get himself out of Vice and back on the set of
Badge of Honor
, but that goes nowhere. But later on he hears about Fleur-de-Lis again, this time in connection with Matt Reynolds. At the time Vincennes and Hudgens are setting up Reynolds for a scandal with the D.A., which Hudgens gleefully predicts will kill Reynolds' career (even as they're lying to the kid's face about getting him a part on
Badge of Honor
) and all for a juicy tabloid story and a $50 bribe. Vincennes is clearly becoming uncomfortable with the whole business and thinks Hudgens is going tooo far, which is why he tosses the money and goes to the motel to let Reynolds off the hook. Finding Reynolds dead, he realises he was instrumental in getting the kid killed. To make matters worse, no one in Homicide seems too concerned about a gay unemployed actor getting his throat slit in a motel room. And all the while there's that damn Fleur-de-Lis thing, nagging at his detective's brain and reminding him what it's like to be a real cop
Then Exley walks into his office and raises doubts about the Nite Owl case, which was Vincennes' ticket out of Vice (in lieu of the Fleur-de-Lis case that he never got to the bottom of). Exley recalls that he got into police work to bring justice to "the guys who thought they could get away with it", but somewhere along the way he lost sight of that. Vincennes reflects that he's so up to his neck in all the corruption that he can't even remember why he became a cop, and he's had enough. Exley's offering him a chance at redemption, and he takes it. -
Fiery_Boycs — 9 years ago(October 30, 2016 08:42 PM)
Bud White found the body first, took the wallet but left the body there.
It was Exley who called in the Coroner and had the body taken away for autopsy. The Coroner would report to Exley his findings.
108 193 23 8114 246* 47.73 22 42 -
JTGleason — 10 years ago(May 08, 2015 10:18 AM)
I'm sorry to have to put it this way, but those are not coincidences. You have to put the movie on pause, or rewind it back to the parts that explain all those things after you went to the kitchen, or restroom while it was on.
For instance, Pearce partnered with Spacey to capture the three negroes, which got Spacey back onto the TV show, so he'd be the only one Pearce might now trust to help him. "Rollo Tomasi" is the made-up name Pearce gave to his father's unknown killer, which is the reason he join the PD. "Rollo Tamatas" sounds like they were talking about women's breasts. -
ejlearman28 — 10 years ago(June 26, 2015 03:41 AM)
Well you're right that I got the name wrong but wrong about the issues with the plot holes.
You should rewind the film and come back and explain to me why the following scenes happen.
I've copied links to clips I'd found on youtube, unfortunately one of them is in Spanish.
Explain why Guy Pearce and Kevin Spacey suddenly get a call about the coroner for the body Russell Crowe discovered.
https://youtu.be/vesvyPOubeo
Why Kevin Spacey who resents Guy Pearce suddenly grows a conscience and decides to help after he's already damaged his career and made enemies in the department.
https://youtu.be/0tdcuaYdTTs
Why Russell Crowe visits a bar and finds a man who tells him that his partner and the dead may have been involved in a drug deal together.
https://youtu.be/7DEyh9VNNK8?t=1h11m43s -
fredunger — 10 years ago(June 10, 2015 01:36 PM)
- Mickyfinn correctly points out that Inez admitting she lied about the timeline starts Exley on his re-investigation of the murders. That leads him to seek help from Vincennes, probably because he successfully worked with before in the original Night Owl bust.
- Vincennes didn't run into the coroner by chance. Exley specifically sent him to meet with the coroner to find out the identity of the body. Remember "You get the girl, I get the coroner?"
- White already knew that Stenzlend killed Meeks before meeting Stampanato. He only learned the motive here. Important, yes, but not game breaking. White on his own already linked Meeks to the Night Owl killing through Stenz and Susan Lefferts being there on a date.
The only real coincidence I'll agree with is White running into Lynn, Susan, Patchett and Meeks outside the liquor store. That chance meeting pretty much set everything into motion after the killings (White recognizing Susan in the morgue, learning she was Stenz's girlfriend, etc).
If that meeting doesn't occur, there's no movie after the murders lol.
-
ejlearman28 — 10 years ago(June 26, 2015 03:46 AM)
Hi, thanks for your reply but I disagree slightly with my assertion that these are coincidences.
I've copied links to clips I'd found on youtube, unfortunately one of them is in Spanish.
Explain why Guy Pearce and Kevin Spacey suddenly get a call about the coroner for the body Russell Crowe discovered. Why did Pearce get a call from the coroner about the body?
https://youtu.be/vesvyPOubeo
Why Kevin Spacey who resents Guy Pearce suddenly grows a conscience and decides to help after he's already damaged his career and made enemies in the department. REPEAT SPACEY HATES PEARCE, why is he helping him?
https://youtu.be/0tdcuaYdTTs
Why Russell Crowe visits a bar and finds a man who tells him that his partner and the dead may have been involved in a drug deal together. Who is this man and why does he know about the drug deal and Crowe's corrupt partner?
https://youtu.be/7DEyh9VNNK8?t=1h11m43s -
LordBhorak — 10 years ago(July 15, 2015 07:20 PM)
About the call from the coroner. Pearce went to the same house as Crowe did and heard that Crowe had gone "under the house", so it was Pearce, who called in the body and therefor there is no coincidence what-so-ever, that the coroner called him about his identity as Pearce had EXPLICITLY asked for the coroner to get to him as soon as he knows the identity of the guy. Did you even watch the film?
-
terry_hurley — 10 years ago(November 08, 2015 05:47 AM)
John Grisham once said that the hardest thing about writing fiction, was to try and avoid a coincidence. He said that coincidences happened all the time, in real life, but, if you include it in fiction, people will say "Oh, that was lucky!".
In terms of a real life coincidence, that really would not have been believed in ficton, I remember a news story, about a woman, married to Greek guy, living in this country. The guy kidnapped his kids, and went to live on a Greek island. the government's of both Greece and The UK could not do anything about it (Extradition laws, or some such nonsense). The wife wanted her children back. She was talking to her best friend , who was able to help. Why? Because her husband used to be in the army, and had been stationed on the Greek island that the children had been taken too. So, he had freinds in the right places, who had the skills, to be able to grab the kids back. Put that in fiction, and no one would accept that. -
Lahiru — 10 years ago(November 16, 2015 06:15 AM)
1 - Nothing inexplicable about it, Vincennes asks what got him in to being a policeman. He wasn't actually trying to 'avenge' his father, as he clearly states, Tomasi was a made up name for the guy since no one knows who the killer was. It's a name for the guy who gets away with it.
Nothing in the film indicates that Vincennes 'despises' Pearce, if anything he's aware that Pearce is digging into a solved case that made his name, evidence of his genuine desire to get to the truth. Vincennes is at this point also having a crisi of conscience, as evidenced by the scene where he drops the $50 note after the death of the young actor. He does feel responsible, and the film provides visual cues to reinforce that fact.
Exley doesn't technically reopen the case, he goes digging on his own because the rape victim tells him that she wasn't sure what time her assailants left, that she had lied to make sure she got justice.
I'm not clear which part of this is meant to be 'coincidence'. Two characters form an unlikely alliance, but this is completely justified by character and plot, it's not some random coincidence.
2 - Vincennes doesn't 'bump into' the coroner, Exley sends him to the coroner explicitly. Vincennes actually says "Oh, great. You get the girl, I get the coroner." before the two split up. How exactly is this a 'coincidence'?
3 - There was no 'heroin deal', the two were working for Dudley to take over the Cohen empire. They betrayed Dudley to try and sell the heroin themselves - this is the information Bud White gets from the interrogation of Stampanto, that Meeks was trying to push some heroin, it was word on the street. How is it a coincidence that a detective does detective work, gleans information, and then adds the pieces together?
I suggest you rewatch the film and pay a bit more attention! -
tommyk1287 — 10 years ago(January 01, 2016 10:15 AM)
Here's a quick response to #2:
Pearce went to the old lady's house after Crowe found Buzz's body, sans ID, and took the corpse back with him to be identified. The coroner identifies Buzz and calls Pearce while he is investigating Crowe with Spacey. Pearce decides to investigate Crowe's girlfriend and tells Spacey to check back at HQ to get the identity of the body. No coincidences there, it was explained pretty well without going into exposition monologues.
The real coincidence is that the hooker's pimp knew Pearce would go question his hooker that night, and had DeVito go take pictures of them. That part I can't explain very well.