Including a statue of Robert E Lee in Richmond.
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Platonic_Caveman — 5 years ago(June 08, 2020 02:00 AM)
Genghis Khan was a genocidal maniac who killed far more people than Hitler. So? We can still dispassionately observe him through the lens of history. Khan certainly deserves a statue though. Few men had such an impact on history.
This is all such bourgeois feel good self-righteous nonsense - the tearing down of Robert E Lee's statue.
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Platonic_Caveman — 5 years ago(June 08, 2020 02:49 AM)
The white power structure is obviously caving in. Virginia is not as conservative as most the South. But it's still a state which usually votes Republican. They're not exactly wild-eyed progressives.
I understand African-American distaste for men like Robert E Lee. But again, they're not putting it in historical perspective. Lee was probably more liberal on race issues than George Washington. Again, we need to judge these men by the standards of their own times, not ours.
I would wager that Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman would have reviled me for being queer. So? Should I tear down their statues?
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Corwin — 5 years ago(June 08, 2020 03:11 AM)
No, but look at it this way - you put up a statue of a person in a park or plaza to commemorate them, to praise them, if you will. That's the whole idea of putting someone 'up on a pedestal'.
That's why your idea of putting a statue of Genghis Khan, as cool as that sounds, may not fly outside of Mongolia. Khan is a world-historical person, no doubt, but there's a lot of countries that may not look on him over-fondly.
So when we put up somebody's statue it's not a hstory lesson in stone or a complex and subtle message about an event, it's a society saying 'this guy was important, and what he did and what he represented is important'.
That's why your comparison with the Founding Father slaveoners is actually very apt. Those are complicated and ambiguous figures that still, though, did clearly positive things for society or the country.
A Rebel General…yeah, personally, I am not so sure. And all he represents is the Confederacy. -
Platonic_Caveman — 5 years ago(June 08, 2020 03:28 AM)
I did a bit of googling on Lee. He believed slavery was evil.
Lee wrote this:
"In this enlightened age, there are few, I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any country,"
Of course he was hypocritical. But as I've argued, like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, he was entwined in the establishment of his time.
Don't you acknowledge that Harriet Tubman, the great abolitionist, would have said I will burn in hell for being queer? My point is that you can't judge these people's greatness as human beings or importance by current moral standards.
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Corwin — 5 years ago(June 08, 2020 03:49 AM)
Jefferson thought slavery an evil too - didn't stop him from buying, working, and owning slaves, nor did it stop Lee. Here's an article for you:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/
I definitely take your point about Douglass and Tubman, though I don't think homophobia was their big legacy, while defending slavery was Lee's. But if there is a big statue of Tubman near you, which I sincerely doubt, but if there is, have at her! -
Platonic_Caveman — 5 years ago(June 08, 2020 04:18 AM)
But my point is that I respect Tubman and view her as a great woman, despite the fact that because of her 19th century Christian values she believed I was a disgusting sinner.
I revere Jefferson as the author of the Bill of Rights which guarantees my personal freedom even today. I'm not too knowledgeable on Lee. I just know that being slaveholders in a time when it was as standard a practice as torture of homosexuals, is not a reason to discount their greatness as historical figures.
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Corwin — 5 years ago(June 08, 2020 11:00 AM)
Historical personages also become symbols. Tubman and Douglass are symbols of abolitionism and the fight for freedom. Jefferson is a symbol of the Enlightenment, the American Revolution, and the quest for universal rights. And Lee?
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Platonic_Caveman — 5 years ago(June 08, 2020 04:22 PM)
He's important historically to Virginians. Lee was also a hero of the Mexican-American War. The South has always been tarnished with the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. But the point of elevating historical figures like Robert E Lee is to show that we do not denigrate the South over the Civil War. There are other great things about the South. I think that's what Lee represents to them.
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Platonic_Caveman — 5 years ago(June 09, 2020 02:54 AM)
Are you saying we should hate the South forever because of slavery?
What about Italy? Should we hate Italy because the ancient Romans had slaves? Should there be no statues of Julius Caesar because he was a despot who owned slaves?
How far back do you go in your time machine to clean up history?
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