What Is So Bad About Roman's Motive, Exactly?
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InTheHub — 10 years ago(October 26, 2015 05:47 AM)
Like I said, neither motive may be realistic or understandable but it makes "movie sense".
I just think you're applying complete logical and rationality to the third film, and shrugging it off for the first. And if anything, you should be way easier on the third film for obvious reasons.
The third film had a much harder job at coming up with an interesting and believable take for the 5th person attempting to kill Sidney.
I think they were clever to tie it in to the original rather than make it a new person.
I don't think you're giving it any credit for that. Ever. And I find that truly puzzling.
"See it with someone you loveGo by yourself" -
Stratego — 10 years ago(October 26, 2015 08:50 AM)
Like I said, neither motive may be realistic or understandable but it makes "movie sense".
I don't think it makes "Scream sense".
I just think you're applying complete logical and rationality to the third film, and shrugging it off for the first.
No, I don't think I'm doing that. Billy's motive is not rational, I never said it was, but it much more reflects reality and the themes of the Scream series.
The third film had a much harder job at coming up with an interesting and believable take for the 5th person attempting to kill Sidney.
I'm not sure if that's true. I consider those earlier motives I mentioned in a previous post less contrived and more appropriate. But even if what you say is true, then maybe they just shouldn't have made a third movie.
I think they were clever to tie it in to the original rather than make it a new person.
Roman was a new person with a completely new history that was never even alluded to in the previous films.
I don't think you're giving it any credit for that
No, I don't, because I don't think they succeeded in that. I'm not going to give them credit for something I actually consider one of the worst things about the movie. There's absolutely nothing puzzling about that. What IS truly puzzling is that you can't accept that people don't like this movie and have legitimate reasons for that. -
Klockard23 — 10 years ago(October 26, 2015 06:10 PM)
Which doesn't make it more understandable. But it's not about his motive hardly being a reason to kill. It's about being ridiculously contrived and not making sense psychologically. As said, I can see him killing Maureen in a fit of rage, I could even see him becoming a serial killer killing random prostitutes or something. But even that, not without some sort of explanation of how he grew up, because most people don't just kill their birth mother because they weren't immediately welcomed by her.
You clearly know nothing about psychology if you don't think it makes sense psychologically. It makes perfect sense from a real world point of view to anyone who realizes the different perceptions/feelings/etc. people have in regards to particular things that if Roman deluded himself into thinking his mother would accept him and searched for her his whole life that it might indeed turn him for the worse mentally when she told him she wanted nothing to do with him. Now factor in his jealousy/hatred for Sidney (for the obvious reasons) and you have the recipe for a psychopath. Like I said, it's not much of a stretch when you consider people have killed for much less in real life.
No, a normal person wouldn't kill for that reason. But his motive is much more realistic than Roman's.
It matters not to me who had a better reason to kill. Neither was exactly of a 100% healthy mind if they went out and started murdering innocent people to begin with.
Sidney was staying with Tatum who would not have just left her side, I don't really see how they could've gotten to her without Tatum getting in the way. They also wanted a big horror movie style finale with Sidney and her father ending up dead and them being the wounded survivors, so sneaking into her bedroom and stabbing her without Tatum noticing wouldn't have worked. I don't think they had a choice. Maybe originally Tatum dissing Stu's sexual performance also played a role.
lol I'm sure killing her had literally nothing to do with them just enjoying butchering people either, right? It wasn't all about Sidney, hence their enthusiasm for making their own "sequel" later on.
Hmm, I can't really say I agree. They seemed to be rather antagonistic in the fountain scene.
That struck me as friendly banter more than anything. -
Stratego — 10 years ago(October 26, 2015 07:31 PM)
You clearly know nothing about psychology if you don't think it makes sense psychologically.
LOL, and you do? Roman hating his birth mother for rejecting him or resenting his half-sister because she did grow up with their mother is psychologically understandable. What doesn't make sense is Roman getting so upset about his birth mother rejecting him that he first concocts a plan in cold blood to have some teenaged stranger kill her instead of doing it himself. Then resenting his half-sister, who has no idea about him, for getting attention for the mess he created. And then out of nowhere deciding to kill random, innocent people so he can get revenge at her because of all that attention and because she did grow up with their slutbag whore mother whom he wanted dead anyway, even though she was already suffering a miserable and reclusive life. And all that without even a hint about his upbringing that would explain why he'd take the rejection so hard. There's just no pattern, causality or correlation, his reactions seem to be random and even contradictory. It's so far-fetched, not even half of it could happen in real life.
It matters not to me who had a better reason to kill.
It apparently does to Axle and Guy (InTheHub), they brought up the comparisons. But it's not about "better" or "more understandable". It's about realism. Previous motives were much more realistic, and the first two movies had an important sense of realism.
lol I'm sure killing her had literally nothing to do with them just enjoying butchering people either, right? It wasn't all about Sidney, hence their enthusiasm for making their own "sequel" later on.
I already said they developed a taste for killing, so I'm sure they didn't mind. But I don't think they would've killed Tatum if she hadn't been in the way and I don't think Billy or Stu ever cared about her.
That struck me as friendly banter more than anything.
I see that differently. Randy was the fifth wheel, only stringing along because he had a crush on Sidney. They just put up with him. -
Stratego — 10 years ago(October 27, 2015 09:46 AM)
No idea. Maybe he took different classes. You have to ask Kevin Williamson. Perhaps he thought he wasn't needed for those other scenes, he was mostly a comic relief character whose main purpose was to provide meta commentary.
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Klockard23 — 10 years ago(October 27, 2015 11:29 PM)
It wasn't really necessary to involve him in any of the scenes he wasn't in. It may have also been because it makes him further appear as a suspect, i.e. we never see him leave the school building before Principal Himbry is murdered.
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Klockard23 — 10 years ago(October 27, 2015 11:24 PM)
LOL, and you do? Roman hating his birth mother for rejecting him or resenting his half-sister because she did grow up with their mother is psychologically understandable. What doesn't make sense is Roman getting so upset about his birth mother rejecting him that he first concocts a plan in cold blood to have some teenaged stranger kill her instead of doing it himself. Then resenting his half-sister, who has no idea about him, for getting attention for the mess he created. And then out of nowhere deciding to kill random, innocent people so he can get revenge at her because of all that attention and because she did grow up with their slutbag whore mother whom he wanted dead anyway, even though she was already suffering a miserable and reclusive life. And all that without even a hint about his upbringing that would explain why he'd take the rejection so hard. There's just no pattern, causality or correlation, his reactions seem to be random and even contradictory. It's so far-fetched, not even half of it could happen in real life.
He didn't create the mess entirely on his own, though. He motivated Billy to kill Maureen and that's it. He didn't know it would set off a domino effect of two full-fledged killing sprees where Sidney would end up becoming a global sympathetic victim. It's understandable that he would further resent her over that. And we don't need to be filled in as to why he'd "take the rejection so hard", we can figure that much out for ourselves.
It apparently does to Axle and Guy (InTheHub), they brought up the comparisons. But it's not about "better" or "more understandable". It's about realism. Previous motives were much more realistic, and the first two movies had an important sense of realism.
Because Stu deciding to kill just because his best friend talks him into it is so much more realistic than someone hating their sibling for getting the cherished life they so strongly wished/felt should have been their's.
I see that differently. Randy was the fifth wheel, only stringing along because he had a crush on Sidney. They just put up with him.
That still doesn't stop them from being legit friends, though. -
Stratego — 10 years ago(October 28, 2015 04:42 AM)
He didn't create the mess entirely on his own
He was the instigator. And it's not like he couldn't have predicted that a brutal murder in a small town would get a lot of attention. Blaming Sidney for something she had no control over is not even in the same category as blaming Maureen for not accepting him.
And we don't need to be filled in as to why he'd "take the rejection so hard", we can figure that much out for ourselves.
Unlike Stu and Mickey, who are just psychopaths, Roman is supposed to have a reason to kill. But your birth mother simply not welcoming you immediately is not a good enough reason.
Because Stu deciding to kill just because his best friend talks him into it is so much more realistic than someone hating their sibling for getting the cherished life they so strongly wished/felt should have been their's.
I think it is. Stu is a psychopath with an admiration for Billy. He's also a teenager, so his comment about "peer pressure" is not that ridiculous. It's one thing to resent your sibling for their "cherished" life (like I've said, slutty Maureen as a mother and media attention for almost getting killed?), it's something else to kill random, innocent people to frame that sibling.
That still doesn't stop them from being legit friends, though.
Okay, then we just see that differently. I think Stu was annoyed and sometimes amused by Randy. But he was a psychopath, so I doubt he could form any real friendships besides the one with Billy whom he more idolized. -
Klockard23 — 10 years ago(October 28, 2015 08:55 AM)
He was the instigator. And it's not like he couldn't have predicted that a brutal murder in a small town would get a lot of attention. Blaming Sidney for something she had no control over is not even in the same category as blaming Maureen for not accepting him.
He had no way of knowing it would lead to two separate killing sprees. If it always remained the case that only Maureen had been murdered, Sidney wouldn't have become as famous as she did. And he didn't "blame" Sidney for anything, he just resented that she got what he wanted.
Unlike Stu and Mickey, who are just psychopaths, Roman is supposed to have a reason to kill. But your birth mother simply not welcoming you immediately is not a good enough reason.
To you, it isn't. To me and several others, it is. It's not inconceivable that there are people out there who could become so emotionally shattered (and thus so enraged) by something like rejection from their birth mother that they would want to kill her. Also, Roman just like the others isn't exactly supposed to be of sound mind. None of them are. We're not meant to sympathize or completely understand their reasoning for killing. Billy killed because Maureen was a homewrecker, Stu killed because of "peer pressure", Mrs. Loomis killed Sidney for defending herself against her psychotic son, Mickey, Jill, and Charlie killed because they wanted to be famous
I think it is. Stu is a psychopath with an admiration for Billy. He's also a teenager, so his comment about "peer pressure" is not that ridiculous. It's one thing to resent your sibling for their "cherished" life (like I've said, slutty Maureen as a mother and media attention for almost getting killed?), it's something else to kill random, innocent people to frame that sibling.
I'm sorry, I just fail to see how Stu doing something as extreme as murdering people because of peer pressure is any more believable than Roman killing for the reasons he did.
Okay, then we just see that differently. I think Stu was annoyed and sometimes amused by Randy. But he was a psychopath, so I doubt he could form any real friendships besides the one with Billy whom he more idolized.
Psychopaths actually can form real friendships and relationships with people, you know. -
Stratego — 10 years ago(October 28, 2015 09:47 AM)
And he didn't "blame" Sidney for anything, he just resented that she got what he wanted.
So he wanted a mother he hated so much he had her killed and attention for being the victim of serial killers? And that's why Sidney (and other innocent people) had to die and be framed for murder? Sorry, but that doesn't make sense at all.
To you, it isn't. To me and several others, it is.
Apparently so, but you asked what was bad about Roman's motive and that's what was bad.
It's not inconceivable that there are people out there who could become so emotionally shattered (and thus so enraged) by something like rejection from their birth mother that they would want to kill her.
I already said that I don't find that so inconceivable. It's everything that happened after that that makes no sense.
Also, Roman just like the others isn't exactly supposed to be of sound mind. None of them are. We're not meant to sympathize or completely understand their reasoning for killing.
But at least with Billy and even his mother we got a brief explanation about what the trauma meant to them. I have no idea if Roman was born a psychopath, if a lack of maternal/parental bonding was the cause, or if he had a sh!tty childhood. Simply saying that his birth mother didn't immediately welcome him isn't good enough for me to explain why he resents his half-sister and years later suddenly starts killing innocent people. Such an uncommon reaction needs more clarification.
I'm sorry, I just fail to see how Stu doing something as extreme as murdering people because of peer pressure is any more believable than Roman killing for the reasons he did.
Because Stu is a psychopath (or at least has some sort of antisocial personality disorder) and a teenager. Just look at youth gangs, it's so easy for teenagers to get caught up in violent crimes just to fit in. And usually with killer duos the dominant person looks for a submissive partner who wants to be dominated and will do what they're told. You won't find many people killing for the same reasons as Roman, he was not like Son of Sam.
Psychopaths actually can form real friendships and relationships with people, you know.
One of the characteristics of psychopaths is that they can't form emotional attachments to others and lack empathy. Stu admired Billy, but I doubt he cared at all for someone like Randy. -
Wildstyle26 — 10 years ago(October 28, 2015 12:49 PM)
One of the characteristics of psychopaths is that they can't form emotional attachments to others and lack empathy. Stu admired Billy, but I doubt he cared at all for
Agreed here. A sociopath is the one that can form relationships and attachments to people, though it may be hard. Psychopaths can imitate human emotions like care, empathy and remorse, but that's all it is - an act. They don't genuinely feel those things for people.
Jill was a psychopath. But her mother and friends were none the wiser to her. And it's realistic. Some wackos are among people everyday, and blend right in. The sociopaths are similar, except they can be more unpredictable and throw some clues to themselves.
Stu and Billy were sociopaths. Billy loved his mother, if nobody else. Same for Mrs. Loomis - who loved her son, if nobody else.
Stu seemed to care about his parents', and their opinion of him when he cries about them being mad at him, but he still has his wacko moments before the reveal. Mickey and Jill fall into the pyscho category. They cared about nobody but themselves, and Jill even had her own mother killed.
Roman can be debated I suppose. And maybe Stu, as some probably do not see him as a sociopath. -
Stratego — 10 years ago(October 28, 2015 01:38 PM)
Stu could be a psychopath or a sociopath, it's difficult to say as we don't really know about his background and, yes, I'm a layman. Maybe Stu really cared about his parents, maybe he was just mocking them. Either way, both psychopaths and sociopaths have trouble forming close relationships.
Billy and his mother could be sociopaths or have borderline personality disorder (abandonment issues!). Although both are also very good at hiding their real emotions and putting on a front. They're both calculating and not extremely impulsive (except for the mother killing Randy), which is more typical of a psychopath. In that regard all the killers seem like psychopaths, but I think that has more to do with the movies being whodunnit slashers, they can't give themselves away, ofcourse. -
Axle_Starr — 10 years ago(January 07, 2016 02:48 PM)
Excuse my abrupt timeout thereand the BUMP
Stratego, it seems (to me, at least) as though you more have a problem with how the events were executed rather than the motive itself
I'll take a potato chipand
EAT IT!! -
Stratego — 10 years ago(January 07, 2016 03:08 PM)
It's both really. I think the idea of a long lost brother framing bis sister as revenge because she got media attention as the result of the death of her mother which he caused himself only because she didn't immediately welcome him with open arms, is not a motive that suits the Scream series and could never be executed in a satisfying manner. If this was Dynasty, then I would probably find it deliciously entertaining. In this case, just no.
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Axle_Starr — 10 years ago(January 07, 2016 03:57 PM)
Do you feel it doesn't fit the Scream series for being unrealistic (perhaps even in the real-world sense, if applicable) or is it strictly for being a bad fit for the Scream series? Or none of the above?
P.S. - Sorry for getting a bit quizzical, it helps for me to try and see it from the other side of the wall (which is good for cross-checking)
I'll take a potato chipand
EAT IT!! -
Stratego — 10 years ago(January 07, 2016 04:33 PM)
I certainly don't think it's realistic in the real world sense, but I also think it doesn't fit with the nature of the Scream series, which I think is more about real fears and commentary on society than far-fetched, soap-like storylines (which it is to me).
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Axle_Starr — 10 years ago(January 08, 2016 02:23 PM)
I think I see where you're coming from on the Scream series (un)fit. To me, that sums up how I see the Scream series as well, but I feel it isn't an offense given that Roman's motive wouldn't be the only one of the bunch to bend that criteria
I'll take a potato chipand
EAT IT!! -
Stratego — 10 years ago(January 08, 2016 03:03 PM)
I think Roman's motive bends the criteria much more than the others, though. Stu and Billy set the criteria, ofcourse. Mickey is a serial killer who wants attention and uses a well-known case to get it, which seems realistic to me. Mrs. Loomis' motive of a mother wanting revenge and enlisting others to do the dirty job for her doesn't seem a stretch either (I'm reminded of "gang mom" Mary Louise Thompson). I do think that the extent of her plan and her over-the-top behavior is as far as the Scream movies could go. Jill's motive of setting herself up as the only survivor of a serial kiler also seems realistic and fitting for the Scream series. The silliest thing was that she was yet another family member. Scream 3 just took it too far with the long lost brother angle, the unbelievable retcon of Roman having been the instigator of everything and him killing innocent people just to frame the sister he never met because she got attention for the mess he created himself.
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Axle_Starr — 10 years ago(January 11, 2016 01:18 PM)
Fair enough, Roman does stand out in that sense. That seems to have been them trying to tie-in to the first movie before closing out the series, but it does seem a fairly hit-or-miss (by a mile, apparently) aspect of the film with the audience
I'll take a potato chipand
EAT IT!!