At what point did Alanzo decide to kill Jake?
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Training Day
rollerblader2 — 13 years ago(August 27, 2012 02:42 PM)
Pardon me for asking this question, since I think it's been asked before (though I had trouble accessing some of the threads)
The theories I've seen are:- He decides to have him killed right after Roger was killed but before giving his speech to Jake in the car after the murder. Evidence for that theory is that apparently you can hear Alanzo saying on the phone, right when they are willing out the injured officer "make sure you clean up that tub."
Now, if that theory is correct, why not just go with Paul's idea and have Jake killed at Roger's? Nothing happened after that, and before the "tub" comment on the phone, to make him change his mind. All I can think of is that it's somehow better for Alanzo if Jake is killed somewhere else other than the crime scene. But I don't know why that would be. - He decides to have him killed only after his speech in the car, after Roger's. Up to that point, he's still considering keeping Jake alive. But we see nothing that tells us why he would change his mind between them talking the car and arriving at the Latinos.
- Another theory was that he was planning on killing him from the very beginning. (This theory is also consistent with the "tub" comment on the phone) But that still begs the question of why he needed the Latino gang, rather than just going with Paul's plan of having Jake killed at Roger's.
Theories 1 and 3 raise the question of, Why give the speech at all? What purpose does it serve Alanzo? One commenter suggested that the reason is that he needed Jake to go give a statement to the DAs office, and that he did so after Roger's. Once giving the statement, Alanzo didn't need him any longer and could go to have him killed. That's an interesting theory but the problem with it is that we don't see anything suggesting that Jake stopped at the DAs office before being taken to the Latino gang. (That would have been really useful information watching Jake being willing to make a false report would be watching him cross the line in a big way, and, if that was meant to happen, you'd think the director would want us to see that.)
Thoughts? Thanks!
- He decides to have him killed right after Roger was killed but before giving his speech to Jake in the car after the murder. Evidence for that theory is that apparently you can hear Alanzo saying on the phone, right when they are willing out the injured officer "make sure you clean up that tub."
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Bernnard_Black — 13 years ago(August 31, 2012 07:24 AM)
Alonzo had it mind from the beginning that he might have to kill Jake, if it came to that. He made that clear when he told Jake he'd been planning the events of the day all week. As to when he finally decided he had to do it, it was after Jake refused to take the money from Roger. At that point, he was a liability to Alonzo's plan because he might have went to internal affairs. Alonzo had him smoke that PCP, true, but that might not have held Jake back, given that knew who the tainted pot came from (Alonzo pointed the kid out and named him), and B) he could get the Sandman's wife to testify that Alonzo used a fake warrant to rob her house. It's enough to cast doubt on Alonzo's team and get them watchedand Alonzo didn't want that. So he he confirmed with Smiley that Jake would be killed.
Thing is, he really didn't want to have to; I think he genuinely liked Jake and wanted him on his team, especially after he got to spend the time with him.
Here's to the health of Cardinal Puff. -
rollerblader2 — 13 years ago(September 01, 2012 02:07 AM)
OK, but then why not just take Paul/Dr Dre's idea of killing Jake at Roger's? It would seem simpler. The way Alanzo does it, he has to gain Jake's trust even after the killing to go along with him to Smiley's. Seems he's taking a greater risk, that Jake would finally bail after Roger's, and that it would be simpler to just have him killed right then and there. I don't see what he gains by waiting to get to Smiley's.
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Bernnard_Black — 13 years ago(September 02, 2012 04:59 PM)
Dunno, other than his position. I have no really good "in story" reason, but I can think of a few possibilities:
- If they wanted Jake to be shot coming through the door, they'd have to get him up near the door; otherwise, he might have bled on the sofa and blown their story.
- It's possible that Alonzo just prefers to be as careful as possible and not have his own men shoot each other. If he can order/ask them to shoot Jake for not going along with a plan, they might not be too happy about going along with his plans in the future.
- Having an officer killed at the scene might have raised much more suspicion or a stronger investigation of the incident. By having it look fairly "clean" with one cop injured and one perp dead, they avoid too many questions. If Jake was killed AND the other guy wounded, it raises some questions about their operationquestions Alonzo would rather not answer. Having him killed by Mexican gang-bangers is, I assume, easier to answer.
The truth is, it was just a part of the story and we have to accept it.
Here's to the health of Cardinal Puff.
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rollerblader2 — 13 years ago(September 01, 2012 02:15 AM)
hmmm. Maybe. But there was already quite a fuss with one officer wounded, and with Roger killed. Not sure that Alanzo would have had to stay any longer. Anyway, now he's got to spend time trying to gain Jake's confidence back (with his speech in the car about how he could make detective), just so he'll go with him to Smiley's to be killed. Doesn't really make sense to me.
(I still liked the movie, but that part is kind of frustrating) -
MaximusXXX — 13 years ago(September 29, 2012 08:00 PM)
Definitely when Jake pointed the gun at Alonzo.
But honestly? If Jake had just taken the money and kept quiet, he wouldn't have been setup.
Those foolish enough to move from canada to america increase the average I.Q. of both countries -
Sinister23 — 13 years ago(October 03, 2012 04:13 AM)
It definitely happened in Rogers house. But three things happened there:
- The money. Would Jake take it or not.
But why are so many people sure that Alfonso decided to kill Jake due to him refusing to take the money? Jake earlier on that day beat up two guys who tried to rape a girl. Ethical that was the right decision and Alfonso seemed to be impressed by Jake from that point on. When Jake refused to take the money, it was once again an ethical correct decision. - Alfonso gives Jake another chance. He tells him to shoot Rogers, but Jake again goes with the ethical correct decision. He doesn't kill Rogers.
- Alfonso himself kills Rogers, but he wants to put the blame on Jake.
Jake refuses once again and of course everything changes at this point - he treatens Alfonso with a gun, Alfonso tells him that he planned it all week.
I think Alfonso even calculated that reaction by Jake into his game plan, that's why he offered Jake to kill Rogers in the first place.
Now forget no.2. Nobody expected Jake to kill Rogers, probably not Alfonso himself really.
But no.1 and no.3 are very interesting. What IF Jake had taken the money? Would Alfonso still try to put the blame on Jake?
If so, then Jake would've been toast anyway. Regardless if he took the money or not.
In my opinon Jake would've gotten away if he refused to take the money, refused to kill Rogers, BUT accepted to take the blame for the killing of Rogers. That's what it came down to.
Alfonso gave Jake three tests within 10 minutes and I guess you can say that Jake failed all three.
- The money. Would Jake take it or not.
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spladow — 13 years ago(October 17, 2012 09:58 PM)
Alonzo decided to kill Hoyt the instant he was assigned to be his "partner". Alonzo was a dirty copthe dirtiest copand he didn't need a squeaky clean new partner to get in the way of his corruption. When Hoyt shows up at the coffee shop in the morning (remember, this movie takes place all in one day), Alonzo had already been planning how to get rid of him. If that meant killing him, so be it.
Here is why. Alonzo was in serious trouble with the Russians from Vegas before Hoyt ever showed up. He already had to deal with the problem of killing one of their guys and reneging on some huge football bets. Hoyt stood in the way of Alonzo's normal mode of operation (which was acting like an arch criminal under color of law), so he decided to use him to get what he needed which was money and an alibi. He had already been planning to kill Roger to get the money he knew was hidden under the house (likely because he helped put it there as Roger was probably a retired or disgraced cop). He didn't need Hoyt to carry out his plan, but since he couldn't shake him, he put him (and his death) into the mix.
The plan went like this: 1) Make sure Roger was at home and relaxed all day; 2) Get a street dealer to give up the Sandman (whom Alonzo had busted, knew was in jail, and had a stash of cash) so he would have a reason to search his house; 3) Get an address for the Sandman, go search it to find the money he knew was there; 4) Use the cash to pay off the other supervisor level cops to back him on the falsified sworn statements he needed to secure his warrant for Roger; 5) Use his usual crew of shooters to go dig up the cash at Roger's place and kill him in the process by calling it a bust; 6) Use his cut of the money from Roger's to pay off the Russians and save his sorry life until he beep up again (which he would because he was cloaked in the aura of arrogant invincible immunity that permeates cops like him).
He kept giving Hoyt chances to be corrupt, but Hoyt always chose the good side of the Faustian bargains as presented. Once Alonzo saw that Hoyt was a Boy Scout, he became a liability because everyone on the payoff chain would turn on Alonzo if he didn't get Hoyt to shape up one way or another. If that happened he would be more beep up than if the Russians caught him.
So in Alonzo's mind, Hoyt was dead when he called him to meet at the coffeeshop.
I made it MaTOP OF THE WORLD!!! -
Sinister23 — 13 years ago(October 20, 2012 01:42 PM)
@ spladow - You're beeing contradictory. You say that Alfonzo already had made up his mind before he even met Hoyt.
But you also say that he kept giving Hoyt chances to be corrupt.
So he didn't really had made up his mind before he met, talked, heard, saw, and finally decided.
Liston to the audio commentary of the DVD. The director says that Alfonso probably even considered Hoyt to become his main man, because he was smarter and more capable then the other guys (the ones who were helping Alfonso at Rogers house along Hoyt).
He even tells Hoyt that he has the magic eye.
You just see black and white though. He wasn't bull**ting Hoyt nonstop. -
HowYaLikeDemApplesWill — 10 years ago(January 23, 2016 10:38 AM)
I tend to agree with your take, and felt the same that Alonzo planned to kill Jake from the jump.
In fact, when Jake was telling to story of his DUI bust in the coffee shop, I felt that Alonzo already knew the story, and Jake had inadvertently busted one of Alonzo's drug dealer contacts.
And of course Roger
had
to die, since he could roll over on Alonzo
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it? -
DjokerFan — 9 years ago(October 15, 2016 09:34 PM)
Referring to the scene where Jake refuses to smoke the PCP/weed. Is the following out of the realm of possibility:
Alonzo: I don't want you in my unit. Get out of my car, rookie.
Jake gets out of car
Movie over
If Alonzo wanted to kill Jake from the beginning, he gave Jake one hell of an out considering they had only known each other maybe 1-2 hours at that point.
As corrupt as Alonzo was, I refuse to believe that he was setting Jake up to be killed from the beginning. I do believe, however, that Alonzo was setting Jake up to be fired and possibly thrown in jail because Alonzo was so desperate to pay the Russians that he was willing to let his rookie be the fall guy for all of his corrupt activity that he engaged in to raise money for his debt. That's what making Jake smoke the PCP was all about. After Jake eventually gave in to smoking the PCP, Alonzo know that anything illegal or even suspicious that they did from now on could be pinned on Jake, for example testifying that Jake caused the mess in Sandman's house.
When Alonzo and the "team" went to raid Roger's house and kill him, Alonzo's plan was to testify that he and his team were going to Roger's house to arrest Roger. In the process of raiding his house for drugs, the new guy who had PCP in his system shot and killed Roger, which was witnessed by five decorated officers who did not have PCP in their systems. Part of this plan included convincing Jake that the homicide would be seen as justifiable by including in the group's recounting of the events that Roger fired shots at Jeff. Who knows what they would have actually said to account for Jeff being wounded.
Alonzo figured that Jake was better off dead than in jail when Jake 1) refused to take his share of the money, 2) refused to kill Roger, and 3) refused to take responsibility for killing Roger. Not so much because Jake was a liability to the testimony, but because Jake was just pissing Alonzo off at that point, to the point where Alonzo was just about ready to take care of Jake himself. When Jake turned Alonzo's shotgun on him, that was when Alonzo decided that it's better off that everyone leaves Roger's house alive, and he has a group of friends on the other side of town who will assist in his damage control. -
HowYaLikeDemApplesWill — 9 years ago(October 16, 2016 08:20 AM)
Ehhh, agree to disagree.after all, unless the writer comes out and says what his intent was, all us cats can do is speculate, which is part of the fun of a good movie after all.
But to one of your points where I think would tend to discount your hypothesis:
"I do believe, however, that Alonzo was setting Jake up to be fired and possibly thrown in jail because Alonzo was so desperate to pay the Russians that he was willing to let his rookie be the fall guy for all of his corrupt activity that he engaged in to raise money for his debt."
I highly doubt Jake could take the fall for Alonzo's misdeeds, after working with him for
one day
.
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it? -
DjokerFan — 9 years ago(October 16, 2016 05:49 PM)
Of course he could. Alonzo was very adamant about this:
"the investigators are gonna want to pull a tube of your blood to check for intoxicants, what are they gonna find, Jake? Do the math, you've been smoking PCP all day, haven't you? Remember?You talk that crazy beep I'll make sure your blood gets to the lab. You wanna walk your little baby nuts around the block you won't make it to the corner, but if you're cool, IF you're cool, you're a hero"
Alonzo made it very clear that the purpose of making Jake smoke PCP was to blackmail him into being responsible for Alonzo's misdeeds and use that as leverage over Jake at any moment that he acted out of line. -
SausagePourVous — 13 years ago(November 21, 2012 04:33 AM)
He gives the speech so that are let inside his mind,get to see Alonzo wanting to justify his awful actions with conviction,committing murder for drugmoney. He is still trying to see himself as"one off the good cops",that it was necessary evil." What you think we gonna do,roll up in a black and blue,slap the cuffs on him? Thats a highroller,dog." He reall was Rogers friend for those years(And Roger even said hes help with the russians,talk about dealing with a snake) and like the true sociopath he had become or was,the reason for getting the money for the russians suddenly is ridding L.A of its biggest(and what apeears to be
nicest and coolest) druglord.
He decides to have him killed after seeing Jake wont join his insane hit squadhence the talk on the phone.and telling Jake what he should tell the DA,just that line,gives Hoyt a false sense of security. That or improvisation or he had planned to kill the rookie who gets let in on details regarding false search warrants and murder etc.,a temporary partner in crime who is in the dark so the whole thing rns smoothly and if Jake talks,hes busted for dope in his bloodbut Alonzo saw he was an honest cop to the bone and that threat wouldnt keep him from talking.
I think he decided it after the murder on Roger when he knew Jake wasnt 100% onboard or even 13%. But the4 speech is for Alonzos sake,not Jake. He is justifyimg being necessary evil,doing what had to be dobne and you get the feeling that he means all of that,he did right. He could be talking to a mirror. The hit was ordered. -
NatalieFan — 11 years ago(June 16, 2014 08:57 AM)
The hit on roger was only "ordered" because he TOLD the three wise men that he knew someone that they could "tax"(aka seize only "3mil" instead of 4mil, keep 1mil). They gave him the go ahead. As much as Alonzo wants to pretend he was just following orders, he knows he murdered Roger both by pulling the trigger and by suggesting the hit.