Atheists, if I told you….
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MnemonicDevice — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 03:20 PM)
You're coming at this from a slightly odd perspective for me.
My belief or otherwise in god and Jesus doesn't depend on what I have to do as a result, or on what happens after I die. Those things are irrelevant.
I don't believe in Jesus or god because there is no evidence for them. Simple as that. If you want me to believe in them, then you need to show me evidence that they are real. If you can then I will believe, whether it is easy or not. If you can't then I won't.
I totally agree with this. My lack of belief is a conclusion I've come to, not a decision I've made. I can't simply decide to start believing in heaven, I'd need to see some kind of evidence or be convinced by a compelling argument. -
cookiela2001 — 10 years ago(June 28, 2015 09:43 PM)
My lack of belief is a conclusion I've come to, not a decision I've made. I can't simply decide to start believing in heaven, I'd need to see some kind of evidence or be convinced by a compelling argument.
Exactly.
I wrote in a similar thread once, that it's like asking us to "believe" some unseen color (maybe called
pendelet)
(?) is the most
beautiful
color in the universe.when we've never
seen
it.
How can one pledge to believe in something.that one has absolutely no direct experience of/with, or indication of?
. -
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 09:34 PM)
I'm not here to convert. It's just a what if scenario that needs faith to work, or in clearer defined words a confident belief in something that there is no material proof for. And as said above, some christians actually believe the scenario I propose.
But to address your proposal, there is no material direct evidence of God's existence, but there is also obviously no material proof that God doesn't exist. I could care less about debates on the subject because as I said, it's impossible to prove God exists or doesn't exist. Everything anyone says in a debate on the subject can be run around or interpreted in a way where no side can win, aka there is no clear evidence for either to be proven whether some thickheaded christians or thickheaded atheists feel to think otherwise. -
Suzzett — 12 years ago(February 22, 2014 10:57 PM)
In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence.
- Irving Copi
This statement can also be known as "modus tollens"
What I have written above is the why/how science works today in developing hypothesis and eventually theories. I do not about about God, but evidence, leading to discoveries and inventions is at the moment, giving me good house to live in, proper clothes to wear and most importantly these technologies to better understand the nature in fastest possible way.
To answer your question:
I would rather not believe in eternal, happy, sin free life because that would make me stop making any progress anymore and this life I am living will be completely meaningless, compared to eternal life that I would know I will be living in.
The most powerful entity for me at the moment is time. If someone comes to me says that time is meaningless, when why live with all the pain surrounding us? Why should I just keep racing with time from waking up in morning till the night? And if someday, I realize that my whole life is reality TV show, to eventually get judged by someone called "GOD", after watching each and every scene of what I thought to be free personal life, that's when I would feel cheated and would rather die then, than living with someone sick like that. Hence, I choose not believe by choice.
- Irving Copi
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raif-1 — 12 years ago(February 23, 2014 04:58 AM)
The most powerful entity for me at the moment is time
In the Quran there is a surah where GOD mention time.
By time, Indeed, mankind is in loss, Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience. (Surah Al-Asr)
For more information on this surah:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Asr -
Suzzett — 12 years ago(February 23, 2014 11:51 AM)
I do not understand what your argument is here. I think almost all philosophical or metaphorical books out there have some mentions of time somewhere. That does not mean that I have agree on all of them. Here's what believe time is:
It is a dimension in space, which we perceive as the fourth dimension. The time dimension helps us to recognize the order in which events have happened. And as far as we know, from second law of thermodynamics, we have a concept of something called the "arrow of time", to understand the flow of time.
I know these because I read it in a lot of books that mention "time". But the difference is that, the things written in these books, I can verify myself by setting up experiments and tests and see for myself. Where as books like Quran or Bible, I have so far found zero experiments that I test in my lab and come up with a consistent or conclusive evidence to anything.
If you are also interested, I can give you the list of books/journals/papers/thesis/dissertation that you can read for yourself to be able to do experiments in your lab too. -
cookiela2001 — 10 years ago(June 28, 2015 09:46 PM)
it's impossible to prove God exists or doesn't exist
Well, you can prove he exists if he ever drops in to show his face.
Maybe even a voice with great knowledge from the sky would do.
So far, your god is rather silent.
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uther8 — 10 years ago(June 29, 2015 12:21 AM)
it's impossible to prove God exists or doesn't exist
It's also impossible to prove that pink unicorns do or don't exist, but just because you can't doen't mean that they should be accepted as real
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free - Goethe -
jmarkoff2 — 13 years ago(March 25, 2013 09:48 AM)
I wonder if the OP would substitute Allah, Vishnu, Jupiter, or Odin, for Jesus in his basic Pascal's-wager thesis. Or even Santa Claus or the Wizard of Oz. By his logic someone would have nothing to lose by believing in these, yet possibly something to gain. Why not just believe in every god/spirit that mankind has ever told of, just in case one or more of them happen to be truly existing?
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ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 25, 2013 09:58 PM)
"By his logic someone would have nothing to lose by believing in these, yet possibly something to gain."
Exactly.
"Why not just believe in every god/spirit that mankind has ever told of, just in case one or more of them happen to be truly existing? "
As long as they aren't conflicting or you can logically think of a way for them to co-exist, absolutely. For some philosophies this is possible, others it isn't. -
njiuma — 11 years ago(October 15, 2014 03:53 AM)
Why not just believe in every god/spirit that mankind has ever told of, just in case one or more of them happen to be truly existing?
- It is interesting to note that the bible gives testimony to the falsehood of the myths and idolatry laden cults of the ancients, claiming that only one great God, unseen and nameless, created all and loves all in His creation. This was certainly a unique belief from antiquity, as all other religions fell short in their spiritual power versus the omnipotent God of Abraham - and virtually none remain as a major force of faith above Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
I think it better to stick with your Pascal reference:
1."God is, or He is not"
- A Game is being played where heads or tails will turn up.
- According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
- The bible does offer information, however.
- You must wager (it is not optional).
- This is a fascinating truth, there is no way to avoid this, since the possibility of the existence (or non-existence) of God faces each of us because the information about God permeates all of society at every level.
- Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
- Pascal makes a great point here: if you are wrong and God does not exist, what did you lose by learning how to live a life striving to imitate Jesus, improving yourself, and helping others (however, it is written that: "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied")? If you are right and God does exist, you gain the extended blessings promised to believers in the afterlife.
- Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
- But some cannot believe. They should then 'at least learn your inability to believe' and 'Endeavour then to convince' themselves.
God promises that if you seek Him diligently you will find Him, it takes only a miniscule amount of faith, as little as a mustard seed. It will be more likely a subjective experience, only for you, though others may participate as well. God won't be limited in how He chooses to reveal Himself to you.
When He does, if you are seeking Him as determinedly as you would a romantic pursuit or other passion-driven undertaking, He WILL appear to you in some way that will cause you to believe in Him.
I challenge you to take that first step of faith and personally experience the true God of the universe.
And remember, the Apostle wisely wrote: "God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
- It is interesting to note that the bible gives testimony to the falsehood of the myths and idolatry laden cults of the ancients, claiming that only one great God, unseen and nameless, created all and loves all in His creation. This was certainly a unique belief from antiquity, as all other religions fell short in their spiritual power versus the omnipotent God of Abraham - and virtually none remain as a major force of faith above Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
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filmflaneur — 13 years ago(March 25, 2013 11:17 AM)
This is like saying "if I told you there was a big box of gold buried at the end of your garden would you dig it up?"
The answer would be the same. You are assuming that your claim would automatically be true. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.