Atheists, if I told you….
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — The Passion of the Christ
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 23, 2013 11:34 PM)
Let me run a little what if with the atheist readers:
If I told you that there is no hell and all you had to do to get into heaven was switch your non-belief in Jesus/God to a strong faith/belief in him as God, would you do it for eternal life?
Little what if scenario "features":
-You change your non-belief in God to a strong faithful belief in God/Jesus in exchange for "free eternal life in heaven"
-You change nothing else in your life
I'm not saying this is true or anything else. Some christians believe that all you need is strong faith of God/Jesus existing to get into heaven, no strings attached/all sins are wiped clean when you die as long as you believe.
I'm not trying to convert or get into a philosophical debate here. Just wondering if it eternal life was this easy, would you do it? -
bastasch8647 — 13 years ago(March 23, 2013 11:41 PM)
I'm not quite an atheist, but I do deny the idea of God as Creator, intervener, judge, book author, sender of prophets and Sons into the world.
Why would I prostitute my "soul" - my moral center, where my integrity is active - for Pie in the Sky?
Especially the mainstream Christian "Heaven" where only "the Righteous" dwell. A lot of those "good" people BELIEVE the "right" things, and they're still sociopathic jerks. Company to be avoided.
And again, why the Christian Heaven? There are so many classic and non-classic versions of the afterlife, most of them extant centuries before the Christian Heaven came along, e.g., Olympian fields, merger with the Divine Mind, reincarnation, angelomorphology, etc. Immortality as a belief in no way originated with Christianity. So why would I betray myself for an eternity in a less-than-perfect Christian Heaven? -
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 23, 2013 11:55 PM)
"Why would I prostitute my "soul" - my moral center, where my integrity is active - for Pie in the Sky?"
It's a question where you obviously would need your pride to take a hit for it to occur. It's not something simple.
"Especially the mainstream Christian "Heaven" where only "the Righteous" dwell. A lot of those "good" people BELIEVE the "right" things, and they're still sociopathic jerks. Company to be avoided."
This is where it sort of distorts due to the "new" ground rules I set above. EVERY believer would get into heaven. EVERYONE who calls themself a believer in christ/christian. Do you believe all the "current" 2 billion christians on earth are righteous sociopathic jerks? Not in the slightest, imagine the same people you deal with in everyday life in being in heaven, obviously with a little less "sinning" occurring though.
"And again, why the Christian Heaven? There are so many classic and non-classic versions of the afterlife, most of them extant centuries before the Christian Heaven came along, e.g., Olympian fields, merger with the Divine Mind, reincarnation, angelomorphology, etc. Immortality as a belief in no way originated with Christianity. So why would I betray myself for an eternity in a less-than-perfect Christian Heaven?"
This is similar to the response above. If "2 billion" current christians got into heaven, it would far from be as literal biblical definition "real" as you'd think. Essentially it would be a "sin-free" place where everyone lives. Is a world without sin that "less-than-perfect" for you? Or do you need sin in your "heaven/eternal dwelling place" for it to be suitable for you to take the bait? I'm not trying to be attacking, just questioning. -
bastasch8647 — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 12:03 AM)
Possibly I'd consider it if it's really a "sin-free zone". But part of my consideration would be what happened to divine justice after the creation of the new Heaven that you are proposing. If everyone gets in without a moral change or a period of purgation/Purgatory, what happened to God's scales of justice?
But as you said, "you obviously would need your pride to take a hit for it to occur". UmmmI think there's a difference between pride and integrity, since pride frequently has the connotation of narcissism and ego-boost, whereas integrity frequently has the connotation of genuine, self-effacing goodness. Guess I'd need to decide whether my egoic pride would take the hit, or if I would suffer grievous loss to my good integrity -
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 08:38 AM)
"God's scales of justice?"
As I'm sure you know, there are "many many" biblical interpretations of christianity, christian beliefs, afterlife precepts, etc etc. And I'm sure you've heard that some orthodox Jews don't believe in hell or the existence of "the devil/minister of punishment in the afterlife:. So for me to tell you if "I belonged to a christian sect where the above applies/is standard belief" by interpeting a dozen or so biblical texts to prove my point, it would be far from a stretch. The simplest for this would be "God is love" and "Whoever believe in me shall have everlasting life"(Jesus).
"But as you said, "you obviously would need your pride to take a hit for it to occur". UmmmI think there's a difference between pride and integrity, since pride frequently has the connotation of narcissism and ego-boost, whereas integrity frequently has the connotation of genuine, self-effacing goodness. Guess I'd need to decide whether my egoic pride would take the hit, or if I would suffer grievous loss to my good integrity "
You are right, my wrong choice of words. Integrity is a much better option there. -
exiteditor — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 07:34 AM)
I'm not trying to convert or get into a philosophical debate here. Just wondering if it eternal life was this easy, would you do it?
Nope. I don't see eternal life as a reward. Anything you have an infinite amount of is, by definition, worthless.
Drew -
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 08:41 AM)
So you'd rather not exist, instead of existing forever? Life would automatically become worthless to you in this instance? I'm not condemning, but you've heard the old sayings "at least I'm not dead"/"It's better than being dying".
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mamu2 — 13 years ago(April 02, 2013 06:26 AM)
"So you'd rather not exist, instead of existing forever? Life would automatically become worthless to you in this instance? "
The afterlife is not 'life' though. It's existence in some spiritual, non-tangible realm, no? -
flickfix — 12 years ago(August 24, 2013 03:33 AM)
He was been cheeky in his reply because he thinks you won't see his logic.
But here it is. The possibility of us ceasing to exists, in any realm, makes every day we did exist precious. It even makes regretful moments bittersweet. The possibility of us having paradise after life would diminish all memories we created in our life.
There is more beauty to be living within our limits of existence, then dreaming of existence extending forever, in a realm that's far better than the ones we have now.
Or think of it this way. Think of life, as our attempt to create and gather as many good memories as we can before we can't anymore, before we cease to exist. You'll see and live life more beautifully.
I have my other reasons for being non religious. But it's simple to see how accepting no after life, makes life far more beautiful. There is no seeing my kids or parents after life, or mending my differences with my family after life. If I want to be with them, it is now. And only now. Any love I need to show them, has to be done now. There's no chance for redemption or say what you needed to say once life is over. There is only NOW. -
Ssertorivs — 11 years ago(May 28, 2014 01:42 AM)
Exactly. Believing in an afterlife makes it easier to ignore injustices in this life. To be obedient. That's what they want.
Spare the rod, spoil the child, the bible tells us. But why? Because pain is needed to force a person to abandon their true nature (which is naturally evil, according to the bible). Society requires that, it wants damaged people that have been convinced by the pains of their upbringing that their way is the only way. They are not happy, because they can't live in the moment or be free, so they need to find artificial meaning to their existence, and the promise of an eternal life, since, never having lived, they cannot deal with their fear of death.
All ideologies lead to 1984 -
danaelambros — 9 years ago(September 12, 2016 01:19 AM)
You hit it on the head: believing in an afterlife makes you more accepting and servile of the inequities and injustices in this life, and also more pliable in terms of religion.It also takes away from the beauty of experiencing and living in the moment. It also takes away joy, and also makes people miss precious moments right in front of their eyes that will pass and never come again. I want THIS life to matter, THIS life to be meaningful, THIS life to do good works and live, love, laugh,suffer, cry.all of it. I never bought the Biblical and and Christian notion that we are all born "in sin" ( And I was raised as a Christian). I always found these words repulsive and could feel on some spiritual level that this was about controlling other people through their guilt, rather than allowing them to freely love whatever God they wish, if they want to worship a god, or no god.
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njiuma — 11 years ago(October 15, 2014 01:44 AM)
There is no seeing my kids or parents after life, or mending my differences with my family after life. If I want to be with them, it is now. And only now. Any love I need to show them, has to be done now. There's no chance for redemption or say what you needed to say once life is over. There is only NOW.
- It is worth considering that Jesus indeed taught to live in the HERE and NOW: Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?"
And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, What shall we eat? or What shall we drink? or What shall we wear? For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."
He is essentially saying not to live for something intangible and worried about the unknown, embrace the opportunity now to live and love God's way. He does offer the incentive of the rewards of God in the context of this teaching, yet the principle of facing each day with the intent to live sacrificially for others in service to God and their benefit is the greatest way to have joy now, even in pain and suffering.
And in the next life, eternal life as well - a double win if you will. You get God's goodness now and in the afterlife. And it only takes a small amount of faith, as small as a mustard seed.
- It is worth considering that Jesus indeed taught to live in the HERE and NOW: Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?"
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toking65000 — 11 years ago(May 28, 2014 08:30 PM)
Actually I wouldn't mind living forever, I think it's better than closing your eyes in death, that is terrifying to just not exist. To me anyway
Create a society in which you would like to live, not knowing what you're going to come into it as. -
Rumble_McSkirmish — 11 years ago(May 29, 2014 12:20 AM)
Like I pointed out though (if my post hasn't been deleted) living forever as your body ages till you are too frail to survive on your own is kind of a crap way to exist (sorta like Tom Hank's character from the Green Mile). I'd rather die than spend an eternity locked in a room crapping diapers.
While it is horrible to miss out on all to come, I don't think a life where you have to constantly struggle forever to survive is going to be worth it.
http://www.imdb.com/board/10335345/board/thread/226240424 -
physics101 — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 08:16 AM)
If I told you that there is no hell and all you had to do to get into heaven was switch your non-belief in Jesus/God to a strong faith/belief in him as God, would you do it for eternal life?
The difficulty in answering your question stems from the inclusion of "Jesus/God" and determining what you mean by "switch your non-belief to a strong faith/belief in
him
as God". (My emphasis).
I'm assuming by "no hell" that you mean our choice is non-existence following death or eternal existence with "God".
So, the choice really comes down to "what kind of experience would that existence be"? Is there any "meaning" to it? any "relevance"? are we just blissfully "happy" without more? Do we just sit around in some mental state akin to a drug-induced euphoria? or more like those in comas?
Is the "God" you speak of still the "God" of the Old Testament? or associated with the trappings of any religion at all? The indeterminancy in your statement creates misunderstanding.
Eternal existence with the Biblical "God" doesn't hold much appeal to me. Why would I want to spend eternity with an entity responsible for wholesale slaughter of human beings - "innocent" as well as "guilty" - throughout history? or who was so unimaginative that he resorted to the tabloidesque charade of becoming "human" just to be "executed" - temporarily - to save us from sin?
So, I can't really answer your question. I would note that as I get older, the concept of an abstract eternal existence holds less and less appeal to me. -
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 08:53 AM)
"I'm assuming by "no hell" that you mean our choice is non-existence following death or eternal existence with "God". "
Exactly.
"So, the choice really comes down to "what kind of experience would that existence be"? Is there any "meaning" to it? any "relevance"? are we just blissfully "happy" without more? Do we just sit around in some mental state akin to a drug-induced euphoria? or more like those in comas?
Is the "God" you speak of still the "God" of the Old Testament? or associated with the trappings of any religion at all? The indeterminancy in your statement creates misunderstanding. "
Simply, you go to a place that is sin-free with all the other "believers"(aka, 2 billion people on earth now+ others). An eternal state of joy or happiness isn't necessary or the regular there. That's your choosing we'll say. God in this instance is Jesus, the all forgiving, all loving, all powerful, giving, judgement free interpretation of him.
"Eternal existence with the Biblical "God" doesn't hold much appeal to me. Why would I want to spend eternity with an entity responsible for wholesale slaughter of human beings - "innocent" as well as "guilty" - throughout history? or who was so unimaginative that he resorted to the tabloidesque charade of becoming "human" just to be "executed" - temporarily - to save us from sin? "
What if I told you it was all a test. Life is a test. Bad things happen mostly because of people choosing bad/evil/sin, God did what he did(the slaughter we'll say) because of lapses in faith that the human race was worth saving at times or should be destroyed completely(to believe this, you would have to think God isn't all knowing obviously). But he then changed his mind and decided "they are human, sin is heavily part of their nature, and it's easier to sin than serve others and love everyone. I will now forgive all who believe and tell them about this through Jesus/My son-God incarnate". Take that as the for instance. Again as I stated above. There are many biblical interpretations for better and worse, make this one the scenario.
"So, I can't really answer your question. I would note that as I get older, the concept of an abstract eternal existence holds less and less appeal to me. "
What do you mean by abstract? Physical body? Heaven option? Sin-free world? I'm curious what you mean here and why in-depthly it isn't appealing to you. -
physics101 — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 11:22 AM)
What if I told you it was all a test. Life is a test. Bad things happen mostly because of people choosing bad/evil/sin, God did what he did(the slaughter we'll say) because of lapses in faith that the human race was worth saving at times or should be destroyed completely(to believe this, you would have to think God isn't all knowing obviously). But he then changed his mind and decided "they are human, sin is heavily part of their nature, and it's easier to sin than serve others and love everyone. I will now forgive all who believe and tell them about this through Jesus/My son-God incarnate". Take that as the for instance. Again as I stated above. There are many biblical interpretations for better and worse, make this one the scenario.
I can't hit a moving target.
Your OP question sort of seemed to eliminate the "Jesus issue" from the question. But now it is clearly back in.
You can't separate the Biblical Jesus from the Biblical God, whom he fully endorsed and believed in. If you want to try to do that, you should phrase your hypothetical something like "assume we have a Supreme Deity X having the following characteristics and attributes .". That way we can discuss things without wondering exactly what you are thinking about, i.e., how much of this Jesus character is the OP really talking about.
More importantly, now I'm supposed to forgive & forget this version of God for "[changing] his mind" about human sin? Do we now assume God is a creator but not an intervenor? or that he purposefully intervenes throughout history to kill or urge the killing of millions of people and/other creatures? Why should such a fallible entity ask anything of us at all for eternity?
What do you mean by abstract? Physical body? Heaven option? Sin-free world? I'm curious what you mean here and why in-depthly it isn't appealing to you.
For example, an apparently integral part of our universe is its entropy - an ever-changing nature. It is manifested by the winds we feel, the warmth of the sun, the changing seasons, etc. Do we experience any of this in this eternal existence you ask about? Is there love? hate? anger? joy? hot? cold? Do we still learn? or are we given infinite knowledge?
Or do we just sit around with a goofy smile on our face feeling never-ending joy? which would seem to me to be no better than non-existence.
Like I wrote, I can't hit a moving target. Nor can I express any desire for an eternal existence whose experiential aspects remain undefined. -
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 09:49 PM)
"More importantly, now I'm supposed to forgive & forget this version of God for "[changing] his mind" about human sin? Do we now assume God is a creator but not an intervenor? or that he purposefully intervenes throughout history to kill or urge the killing of millions of people and/other creatures? Why should such a fallible entity ask anything of us at all for eternity?"
It's not forgive or forget. As I said and you should all the better know, there are different interpretations and beliefs for many things, "especially for religous/biblical writings". For instance, the bible is full of parables, who's not to say that some are lessons and not word for word stories or some are "spiritual deaths/murders", etc etc. It's not that hard to take some scenario/interpretation as a separate entity and use it as such. 2ndly, as an atheist you shouldn't believe those stories anyway or take the 2nd path as I described to incorporate them as described, so I don't see the issue for you to bring this up.
"For example, an apparently integral part of our universe is its entropy - an ever-changing nature. It is manifested by the winds we feel, the warmth of the sun, the changing seasons, etc. Do we experience any of this in this eternal existence you ask about? Is there love? hate? anger? joy? hot? cold? Do we still learn? or are we given infinite knowledge?
Or do we just sit around with a goofy smile on our face feeling never-ending joy? which would seem to me to be no better than non-existence."
As I stated, it would be a sin-less environment with billions of people in it. Aside from that it's open to interpretation, but likely there is lots of harmony, peace, joy, and positive things going on. No sins, so no hate, no violence, etc etc etc. I don't have environmental conditions, but I don't see why that plays a part in your decision unless we'd be talking extremes which is highly unlikely for the scenario just because you asked. Learning and growth are interesting questions, yes we can learn and grow still, and say we aren't given infinite knowledge but we can obtain it over time.