Lars von Trier 'IS' American
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Howlin Wolf — 9 years ago(December 06, 2016 09:31 AM)
why should i care what he has to say about it?
because people can often accidentally get the right answer, even when they're misinformed
"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!" -
memefactory — 18 years ago(June 19, 2007 05:36 PM)
Spot onin fact, I'd say it often takes an outsider to be able to really look at somehting. I am thinking of LAND AND FREEDOM, the Ken Loach film about the Spanish Civil War in particular, though there are scads of other films, books, and so on out there that illustrate this.
As for Amercians getting all shirty when they think they are being criticized - it has always been this way (except in San Francisco, where if you don't HATE America then something is "wrong" with you). We have always been a defensive people and I am sure the reasons are varied. What I would like to say to my fellow countrymen is this: America is NOT the best place in the world and it is also NOT the worst - it is simply one country of many and like every other country on the planet, it has a mixture of things that person A will see as good and person B will see as bad, and so on. So relax, people and get over the collective American neurosis about America. If we are going to go out into the world and throw our weight around then the rest fo the world has a right to comment on us.
Nuff said. -
logan-burns — 19 years ago(December 08, 2006 03:40 PM)
I think one way of viewing the von Trier quote, "American is sitting on our world. I am making films that have to do with American because 60 percent of my lif is America" that forindcine cites is that America is like an umbrella over the world. everyone in the world is deeply deeply deeply effected by this country whether they have set foot here or not; america's hands are in all placesuntouched but touching..
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joni-oksa — 19 years ago(January 01, 2007 08:03 AM)
I loved first one, I am going too see this movie next week. Us citizens are so pissed off about things what "might" have been occured in us 1930. Come on most of us were not living back then even. Racism in whole world was on totally different level that is now.
"so-called modern Europe." explenations please for this one. -
CinemaRomeo — 19 years ago(March 15, 2007 12:58 PM)
No, he's NOT "American". This is like saying I'm English because I speak the language, I'm "Chinese" because I grew up watching kung fu movies and eating their food, and I'm "Spanish" because of our "cowboy" rodeo culture.
Guess what? One of the biggest media empires in America, Fox, is owned by an Australian. Russell Crowe, Hugh Jackman, Nicole Kidman and Mel Gibson are Australians. Does this make me an "Australian" too?
This is a flimsy excuse. Lars just doesn't like America. Fine. That's his opinion. He doesn't have to watch our shows, go to our movies, or buy from an American franchise.
Come to think of it, I don't have to buy, rent, or attend a film showing his silly, distorted portrayals of my countryeverybody wins!!
Don't knock masturbation - it's sex with someone I love. ~Woody Allen -
muggizuggi — 19 years ago(March 25, 2007 12:06 PM)
You are completely missing the point. Sorry.
"Lars just doesn't like America. Fine. That's his opinion."
Are you sure? I never heard him say that.
"He doesn't have to watch our shows, go to our movies, or buy from an American franchise."
While it might be theoretically possible for him not to, it would be highly unlikely. I mean, he would have to make a real effort not to.
To my knowledge, our country is not, and has never been, influenced in such a profound way, by anything else. Yes, perhaps when the christians came 1000 years ago. That was pretty big, too.
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CinemaRomeo — 19 years ago(March 26, 2007 04:05 PM)
Well, I've never traveled to your country, so I can't say how "theoretical" a possibility it would be for him to avoid American business in Denmark. I do find it difficult to believe that it would be that hard, especially since Lars probably makes quite a lot of money.
"Are you sure? I never heard him say that"
There are those who defend von Trier by saying that he doesn't really hate America, he just hates our current administration. I hope you'll forgive me when I say I'm deeply suspicious of the truth of this. "Dancer in the Dark" was released in 2000, right when Bush had just gotten into office and before Sept. 11 happened and there was plenty of outrage over the film's portrayal of America (I haven't seen that one so I can't say if the outrage was justified or not).
When I saw "Breaking the Waves", I thought it was a beautiful film set in Scotland. In no way did I think it was a criticism of the Scots themselves. On the other hand, if von Trier had made not one but THREE films criticizing the country, I would think he had something against the Scots.
I mean Jesus Christ, come on. First "Dancer in the Dark", then "Dogville", then "Manderley", and now "Wasington"! The last three are a trilogy called "USA - Land of Opportunities" and just in case we didn't get his point, he plays the Bowie song "Young Americans" in each of them while we get treated to shots of the unfortunate in different periods in history.
Yeah, I think he's got an axe to grinda particularly nasty one too
Don't knock masturbation - it's sex with someone I love. ~Woody Allen -
muggizuggi — 19 years ago(March 27, 2007 06:48 AM)
"Well, I've never traveled to your country, so I can't say how "theoretical" a possibility it would be for him to avoid American business in Denmark. I do find it difficult to believe that it would be that hard, especially since Lars probably makes quite a lot of money."
You are still missing the point. It is not about business, it is about culture.
"There are those who defend von Trier by saying that he doesn't really hate America, he just hates our current administration. I hope you'll forgive me when I say I'm deeply suspicious of the truth of this."
First, just so we know what we are speaking the same language, I assume you define "America" as the country USA, with all its citizens. If you have some other definition, please elaborate.
Now, try to think of a reason why anyone would hate that.
I can think of a few, but none that would apply to danish citizens.
Can you?
"When I saw "Breaking the Waves", I thought it was a beautiful film set in Scotland. In no way did I think it was a criticism of the Scots themselves. On the other hand, if von Trier had made not one but THREE films criticizing the country, I would think he had something against the Scots."
Again, you are completely missing the point. It is not about criticizing a foreign country, it is about exploring a cultrure.
It makes perfect sense for Lars von Trier to make his movies about American cultural history, because he feels a part of that culture. That makes its history his own.
"I mean Jesus Christ, come on. First "Dancer in the Dark", then "Dogville", then "Manderley", and now "Wasington"! The last three are a trilogy called "USA - Land of Opportunities" and just in case we didn't get his point, he plays the Bowie song "Young Americans" in each of them while we get treated to shots of the unfortunate in different periods in history."
Yes, he is a very pessimistic person. Have you ever seen a happy movie done by him?
Anyway, don't you think there is an important story to be told about the unfortunates in the land of opportunity? Or do you really think it should be taboo? -
CinemaRomeo — 19 years ago(March 27, 2007 01:53 PM)
Muggizuggi, I don't think your distinctions make all that much sense. Take the one between "business" and "culture". You say that Lars is simply exploring a culture and that he makes films about American cultural history because he feels a part of it. I don't really see how he can do this unless "business" and "culture" are conflated to mean the same thing. After all, we don't share the exact same history, so Lars apparently thinks he's American because his country trades with ours and apparently our franchises and television shows seem to be doing pretty well over there.
I always found it kind of bizarre that so many people around the world think they know America because of McDonald's, 7-11, Elvis, etc. Or because you see the obnoxious drunken tourists. I always found this somewhatcondescending.
By the way, when I say "America", I do mean the USA, with all its citizens, since I often hear sneering and judgmental stereotypes about the American people as a whole from people in other countries.
I sometimes go back and forth on how I regard this director. I saw "Dogville" and "Manderley" and expected to be completely angered. But when the films were over, I felt instead a mixture of annoyance and amusement. When I read an interview with Lars, I almost like the guy. He's kind of funny.
As far as your last question, I do think we shouldn't ignore the poor and unfortunate. What I dislike is the smug, self-righteous tone von Trier takes. He's so off-the-wall with his vision that I think it says more about him than about the United States.
Don't knock masturbation - it's sex with someone I love. ~Woody Allen -
tulipgirl — 19 years ago(April 03, 2007 02:50 PM)
My darling. You're probably aware that the world is becoming the global village which means little by litlle we're all drawn into the same culture. And guess what, that global culture or shall we call it pop culture is actually American. I think you would also agree with me the thing that makes a nation isn't their territory but the culture. So, by being surounded our whole life with American things, movies etc. we are also being taught to live an American style of life. Please don't underestimate those things. They are all responible for buliding our personality. Isn't the philospohy of modern capitalism, which of course originates from America, also thing that determines our thoughts and actions. And yes, power of media is tremendous, more than we realise it. So, proud of it or not, want it or not we all have something American in ourselves. We don't have to see any US state for that. They have all visited us. The one of the things which makes us different is our education which here in Europe wants from us to have a little bit different perspective of the world. That also isn't thrue for all European countries because Western Europe where I temporarily study (otherwise am from Eastern Europe) adopts American philosophy even in education. So Lars von Trier has every right to say that he is also American. And if you look at his movies from that perspective you will notice that
by critisizing American culture he also makes critics on himself. And it's not only about critics. It is pointing out things which are not good in our culture and what he wants from us is to look up into ourselves and try to change something. -
CinemaRomeo — 19 years ago(April 04, 2007 08:03 AM)
First of all, the philosophy of modern capitalism DIDN'T originate from America. It came from the Scottish Enlightenment. On our continent, we've tried a variety of economic systems, from Communism to Mercantilism to our modern "mixed" economy. Yes, I guess we're more "free market" than many other nations, but I think that's relative.
I suppose in a sense we're becoming a global village. After all, you and I are communicating with each other right now, without having to leave our respective homes, something that would've been quite difficult a couple of decades ago. In fact, I can't imagine trying to communicate with all these other people from all these other nations at one time by phone! "Six way calling??" lol..
I'm curious about what you mean when you say Western Europe adopts an "American philosophy" in education. I really hope you're not studying Dewey, Thoreau, and Whitman at the expense of Heidegger, Sartre, and Nietzsche. We don't even do that here.
Also, I'm all for criticizing what you see as weaknesses or deficiencies in a culture. Or wanting people to become better.
What's strange to me is the way von Trier does that. Instead of moving from nation to nation to explore painful aspects of the human spirit, he sticks with one and makes a trilogy. It looks less like an "exploration" than a desire to piss us off, become notorious, and make money. In other words, it seems verycapitalist of him.
Don't knock masturbation - it's sex with someone I love. ~Woody Allen -
rhea_b24 — 18 years ago(April 08, 2007 07:05 PM)
I think it makes sense if he feels 60% american. You make movies about stories you identify with it - and if it happens to be the american story so be it. I think he has a right as anyone in the world to criticize the culture most of the world has adopted and if there are people criticizing in their homes, in their workplaces and criticizing how they feel about a certain part of the very culture that is directly affecting them,(not saying that one has to be influenced 60% by a culture to write an effective story - we all know what happened in Nazi Germany and write a critique of the treatment of the jews without setting a foot in the country) then why is it such a big thing to put it on film? If you have not noticed, the United States at the moment is the centre of controversy. Many people may feel the same as Lars, many will not, but it is good that he is able to express his opinions and put them on film for the world to see and decide whether they want to accept his views or not, because, no matter how much i shout my opinions they will definitely not reach a worldwide audience the way Lars' ideas have - opening the floor for discussion on why you might or might not agree with his views (we are on a message board are we not?). He has the privilege of using his talent to voice his opinion.
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CinemaRomeo — 18 years ago(April 09, 2007 10:06 AM)
I agree, sort of. I'm not saying he can't make any film he wants, just that his rationalizations for this trilogy don't really hold water with me. If you'll notice, the objection I brought up had to do with that "60% American" thing. I just take offense to that.
Lars hasn't sworn an oath of allegiance to the United States, so I don't know where he gets off calling himself "American" in any way, shape or form. My life as an American has been heavily influenced by the British Empire. Even our documents such as the Constitution and Bill of Rights and so forth are heavily indebted to British tradition. I even speak English, for cryin' out loud! But it doesn't make me "British", no matter how much of the culture and way of life I've soaked up.
Don't knock masturbation - it's sex with someone I love. ~Woody Allen -
rhea_b24 — 18 years ago(April 09, 2007 06:10 PM)
(this is almost a novel! lol) I believe Lars was exaggerating a point by saying what he meant in that way, but nevertheless it is a very good point. At what point can you say that you feel as if you are part of a country? There are two issues that must be solved when associating someone with a country. two components (a) whether or not you truly identify yourself with a country and (b) whether others identify you as someone from that country.
(a) here is clear - Lars does identify with the United States - (b) is not clear. Normally when a person claims to be from a country we usually want to be able to place him in that environment- in other words we need proof - the proof we normally ask for is the amount of time they might have spent there, or whether or not they have a passport from that country or whether their immediate ancestors are from that country. The proof that is required is a relative issue - and if you are talking to someone from the country u claim to be from the bar is even higher, but there are many questions as to relativity. If I were born in a country and i left when i was 2, can i still validly claim to be from there?
Now let us weigh that with Lars situation and the situation of many other people outside of the U.S.- something that is very current - if my government is currently changing its laws to accommodate agreement with the US, thereby making it easier for US policies to influence me, by way of media, by way of current and future legislation,my economy is being influenced because of the actions of the West (but most notably the US) and the impact I feel is getting stronger and stronger everyday, the things that are most important to me are regulated by way of what happens in the US - the very essence of my culture - what i eat, what i wear, how i view the world is influenced by the TV, movies, and general environment i live in (dominated by US media - in some countries a lot in others not as much ) who has a better claim of validity - the two year old baby, who has not ever felt the impact of the culture of the country or me? Yet the baby is probably considered more American than I would be. (Not that Lars or i want to be americanwell i can only speak for myself lol)
I know this is a bit difficult for you to see because you are from the country that is doing the influencing and u are unable to feel the impact of the US on the world but as one other poster said - our parliaments go out of their way to please the US, and what if anything determines how people act than the very laws of the country? (the British Bill of Rights is different because the US has changed it to accommodate their country and so has developed their own identity - therefore moving away from the British - the world is moving towards the US (or at least our legislators are. -
Jeppersen — 18 years ago(May 30, 2007 07:04 PM)
Actually "Dancer in the Dark" is part of the Golden Heart trilogy, not the USA trilogy!
Europe Trilogy "The Element of Crime" "Epidemic" "Zentropa(Europa)"
Golden Heart Trilogy "Breaking The Waves" "The Idiots" "Dancer in the Dark"
America Trilogy "Dogville" "Manderlay" "Washington"
Its purely coincidence that dancer in the dark is set in the states, but it was for the purpose of selmas kid to get an eye surgery! He actually decided to make the america trilogy after he got alot of heat from americans about dancer in the dark! so you can see he was kind of provoked! which is very typical of von trier, whos saying is: A movie should be like a stone in the shoe!
So you see, he has been just as critical to europe as he has been to america! -
ior1967 — 18 years ago(July 12, 2007 04:25 PM)
"Lars hasn't sworn an oath of allegiance to the United States, so I don't know where he gets off calling himself "American" in any way, shape or form."
Well what constitutes being an American? You seem to be obsessed with the actual legal citizenship and in doing so inmho fails to see what he is getting at.
To play Devil's advocate here I'd just like to point out that I doubt the peoples of Canada, Maxico, Chile, Brasil, Venezuela etc. etc. agree being American equals having "sworn an oath of allegiance to the United States" (even though I am sure Mister Bush would much rather have it that way). -
CinemaRomeo — 18 years ago(July 17, 2007 01:15 PM)
Aw, come on now.do you really think when von Trier says "American" that he's talking about a continent? If so, then I'm going to have to retract my entire objection
Don't knock masturbation - it's sex with someone I love. ~Woody Allen