Poll: Do you think Russia is Losing it's War against Ukraine ?
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chrismac1970 — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 04:00 AM)
No. Reality, and every serious military expert on earth outside of Russia is telling me this. Oh, by the way, five… FIVE! pro-Russian officials in the Donbass have been assassinated on Friday alone. In a single day. All of Putin's allies in the CTSO are turning against him because they smell blood in the water. Even the Pope and Modi, who've both been sitting on the fence have been distancing themselves and being more blunt in their criticism of Putin. Does that sound like "winning" to you? because it doesn't to me.
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ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 05:42 AM)
It is not about winning or losing and that is what you aren't grasping. The Ukrainian military cannot come close to the might of the Russian military. It is all diversion and distraction for the world stage only.
Putin DOES NOT care about criticism, nor how he looks. The Donbass region was being shelled for several years by Ukrainians.
Did the US really lose the Vietnamese conflict? No! They withdraw due to Homefront pressure and there was nothing to win. The Vietnamese causalities were staggering.
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
chrismac1970 — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 06:01 AM)
Russia is going to lose. Mark my words. Either that, or a nuclear war will occur and everyone will lose. Putin will not win in Ukraine and is in fact losing right now. In this Vietnam analogy of yours it should be Russia as the USA and Ukraine as Vietnam. You've got it totally backwards. Vietnam was getting a lot of help from both China and especially Russia, but the weapons Ukraine is getting from the West are way more powerful than what Viet Cong was getting back then from the U.S.A.. More importantly, Russia is far weaker militarily relative to their current adversary (Ukraine) than the USA was relative to the Viet Cong. The U.S.A. lost then and Russia will lose now for the same reason, except it is even more obvious and likely.. or Armageddon will occur as I've said before.
The Donbass was shelled for years because it was illegally occupied by Russia, and many of the "rebels" in the Donbass were in fact Russian nationals, not Russian-speaking Ukrainians. The pro-Russian side killed more than it's fair share of people, so don't act like big-bad Ukraine was just randomly murdered people, because that's BS. -
ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 06:22 AM)
It is not about Russia winning and it never was to begin with. It was to stir up controversy and outrage. It has worked. This is a personal conflict regarding Russia and Ukraine. It is not a big deal in the larger scheme of things, only designed as such.
I really don't give a rats who killed who. Ukraine would not stand a chance against Russia, if the iron boot was administered down hard.
NATO did not want Ukraine, as they did not come up to scratch, being a horrible **** hole state. Now its all about bureaucracy and unhinged self-serving agendas. Stop reading the news about it and getting all outraged over Russia.
The US had no business in Vietnam, except to be bullies. They only lost in the sense that there was nothing to win. They wanted to show how evil communism was with their own brand of evil.
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
chrismac1970 — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 06:38 AM)
This is sophistry and gibberish. The question posed in this thread: "Will Russia hold onto Ukrainian territory (win) or will it withdraw from Ukraine (lose)?". A simple Yes or No will do. All the rest of this is just avoiding the question posed. Maybe if Russia had seized the two Donbass regions and the Black Sea coast (including Odessa) in a quick blitzkrieg before anyone had time to react he cold have won. But he didn't do that… and now it's too late. Russia is losing because of corruption, incompetent military strategy, and poor logistics and equipment, plus a motivated home resistance and NATO weapons… not because "Putin is too gentle". At this point, Putin can't "put down the boot hard" because he knows he can't be successful with against a united guerilla movement (or actual military as it turned out) PLUS NATO weapons. He also can't be too aggressive without provoking a nuclear war or direct NATO involvement (or both). He can't mobilize the full country without provoking widespread resistance in Moscow and St. Petersburg and also ruining the economy which is already on the ropes.
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ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 06:45 AM)
This entire conflict is fallacious and stop it with your own gibberish and world salad. Learn to use paragraphs.
This entire thread is fallacious too, because like I said, it is not about winning or losing, it is about stirring the pot.
Ukraine is not a part of NATO, so this archaic and corrupt agency is over-stepping its own territory. It is all a ruse to undermine and push out Putin. Good luck!
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
chrismac1970 — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 09:45 AM)
Fallacious? What is the fallacy? Who is stirring the pot? If Putin is that easily fooled and duped and ensnared then he's an idiot, anyway. Security guarantees were made to Ukraine and it doesn't need to be part of NATO for other countries to send it weapons. Putin is undermining himself and getting pushed out of Ukraine because of his own greed, hubris and incompetence. He wants Ukraine for it's natural resources and gas deposits that were discovered around 2012 or so in the Black Sea and Donbas areas. All the other justifications he's made are just rationalizations. He doesn't want Ukraine to threaten his monopoly on supplying natural gas and oil to Europe, and the leverage that goes with it. Russia is losing the war. You can try and bullshit your way out of it by moving the goal posts if you like. I think I'm just about done with this conversation. You're not saying anything interesting, well-reasoned, or meaningful.
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ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 10:04 AM)
The fallacy is the bullshit reasons given to support Ukraine.
Don't you think its interesting Putin only invades when Democrats are in tenure in the US? Of course he wants it for its natural resources. That is not in dispute. The hype and interest that the US is in supporting Ukraine is dubious. What justification does the US have?
NATO would have a lot to answer for just as much as Russia, if hypothetically a very serious war breaks out. The US would be seen as enabling this too and for the same reasons they blame Russia for. NATO is not squeaky clean.
GTFO and for the second time, learn how to paragraph.
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
chrismac1970 — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 09:14 PM)
You make a paragraph of one sentence and then tell someone else to "learn how to paragraph". I could just as easily question your paragraph structure, by why would I waste my time doing that on a discussion board? Besides, paragraphing is highly subjective and hardly relevant for the short exchanges on offer here. The fact that you feel the need to bring "paragraphing" into the debate is an indication that you have little of substance else to say.
Anyway, what justification does Putin have for invading a sovereign country that hasn't attacked him? If the U.S.A. can't justify the invasion of Iraq than Russia sure as hell doesn't either.
GTFO yourself for the second time, and learn not to move goalposts when you debate. -
ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 11:53 PM)
Unless one is writing an article, making short paragraphs with 1 or 2 sentences breaks the points down and makes it easier, or even more appealing to read, so it IS relevant. In your case, anything you say is worthless regardless….
Putin has more justification to invade Ukraine, than the US ever did to stick its tainted and corrupt beak in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam and Korea, which were not a threat to them. They used NATO as a ruse to dominate with its own military power.
GTFO, because my goalposts are sturdy, yours are the ones swaying about in your huff and puff, windbag!
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
chrismac1970 — 3 years ago(September 18, 2022 04:29 AM)
You could have the greatest prose style in the history of the English language and every excuse, rationalization, deflection and evasion you've trotted out would still be sophistry and bullshit.
Meanwhile as you lecture on English prose style, partisan activity in Kherson is picking up and Russians are sinking train cars in the river as a make shift bridge so they can have an evacuation route…. but they're winning according to you. "Paragraph" that. -
Holy-Water — 3 years ago(September 18, 2022 07:41 PM)
I want to thank both
chrismac1970 and ToastedCheese
.
Great debate and I enjoyed the back and forth. I usually have strong opinions on politics but this time I don't know which of you is right. But I will say I hope chrismac1970 is right. Putin is a barbarian who will kill
innocent civilians
to win. He already has and on purpose. -
chrismac1970 — 3 years ago(September 18, 2022 08:48 PM)
Holy-Water said...
I want to thank both
chrismac1970 and ToastedCheese
.
Great debate and I enjoyed the back and forth. I usually have strong opinions on politics but this time I don't know which of you is right. But I will say I hope chrismac1970 is right. Putin is a barbarian who will kill
innocent civilians
to win. He already has and on purpose.
We got bogged down arguing over paragraphs and sentence structure towards the end. Sorry about that.
Two months ago I might have answered differently. I was of the opinion then that Ukraine might be in trouble and have to settle for borders as they were, although I never believed Russia could take the entire country. I feared they might not get HIMARS and other weapons soon enough to change anything. I also wasn't sure how quickly they would be trained on them and how effective they would be, not being a military expert. Well, those new weapons have proven quite effective and the Ukrainians have proven to be quick learners. The simple fact is that conditions have changed on the ground and even pro-Russian military bloggers are acknowledging it, so I don't believe it's just Western propaganda. -
ToastedCheese — 3 years ago(September 19, 2022 09:36 AM)
Where did I say they are winning? I have already commented that it is not about winning or losing.
You obviously are shifting the goal posts to evade the essence of what I mentioned about Russia having more connection and purpose to Ukraine, than the US ever did to invade the countries they had no business invading. I suppose you're going to tell me they didn't invade other countries and they had reasonable justification. The US WITHDREW from Vietnam.
I think you need to stop watching CNN and other bribed leftist news reports, media zombie…..
Norman! What did you put in my tea? -
phantomparticle — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 12:39 AM)
Interesting turn of events in the face-to-face between Putin and Xi. The Bear is in real trouble and the Dragon holds a big stick over him.
Xi has to aid the Russians without getting China into a real conflict with the West. At the same time, Beijing, which is hellbent on supplanting the U.S. as the dominant world power, is counting on the war with Ukraine to seriously weaken Russia as a potential threat to their own interests down the road.
To Xi, Putin's growing folly and Biden's destruction of the American economy and increasing reliance on Chinese exports is a win-win-situation.
I'm not changing my "no" vote yet, but the situation could become so dire that Putin will have to resort to a make-or-break Gotterdammerung and bring a final resolution to the whole mess.
And This, Too, Shall Pass Away -
Millard — 3 years ago(September 17, 2022 12:49 AM)
Ukraine really does not need the Wests help.
https://us21.chatzy.com/m/54858866758294