Who's Name's Will Jim Kelly Not Disclose?
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Nebula_One — 10 years ago(April 11, 2015 12:56 PM)
Megafauna005, Bruce never bested ANY champions? Oh I see, you were there and Jim Kelly wasn't. How can anyone take you seriously? I love a good debate/argument. Unfortunately, it's impossible to do that with you because you have no knowledge of Bruce Lee's background.
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victorsuk — 10 years ago(April 11, 2015 06:01 PM)
Well, Bruce never bested any champions in tournaments, because he wasn't a competion competitor or fighter.
But it seems he bested tournament fighters outside of tournaments that's quite clear.
That's more impressive to me than winning a completion fight. -
SuperSanity — 10 years ago(April 20, 2015 04:02 PM)
It doesn't have to be a competition circuit for there to be competition. A simple backyard "Hey, let's see who wins" can be competitive. A street fight can be competitive. There's just no title that goes along with it.
There is, unseen by most, an underworlda place that is just as real, but not as brightly lit -
SuperSanity — 10 years ago(April 21, 2015 05:40 AM)
If you beat them, you bested them. Whether it took place in an official competition or not. For as much as there's been told about Bruce, we really don't know much about Bruce's daily life or what he did with the people he trained with. Guy's like Chuck haven't really said too much.
There is, unseen by most, an underworlda place that is just as real, but not as brightly lit -
Zhan_Zhuang — 10 years ago(May 13, 2015 01:49 PM)
pking-2:
If there's no competition, there's no "bested."
I'm really not sure if the ego of some of these people really understood the phrase 'no competition'. The facts are that Lee trained a who's who of top pro-fighters from that era and the competitive nature of martial artists in general and that of sports fighters would have been a factor for sure.
Dan Inosanto went on record somewhere in regard to this with Lee training Joe Lewisthere are literally thousands of interviews out there with Guro Dan, in print and on video but i'm not sure where I found that from?
Be still like a mountain and flow like a great river.- Laozi
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Nebula_One — 10 years ago(May 15, 2015 02:11 PM)
pking-2 "And if there's none of that, there's no bested."
I respectfully disagree. They were just not 'officially' bested.
I can never understand why there is so much hoopla about Lee not officially competing. One can easily show combat superiority without participating in tournaments. I saw this happen to a world champion Karate fighter right here in good ole Minneapolis Mn. in 1982. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 15, 2015 04:39 PM)
And if there's none of that, there's no bested."
I respectfully disagree.
If there's:
No official competition (and there wasn't)
No unfriendly fight, eg "street" (and there wasn't with the audience in question such as his significant martial arts training partners/students/rivals except of course Wong Jack Man)
No private "let's see who is best" friendly fight/test (as far as I know but I might be ignorant)
Then I see no basis for any claim of "bested" or "was bested by".
"Being better than" (but never establishing it in public or private competition) is simply
not
actually "besting" someone else. Of course, perhaps I'm just being pedantic, which I do sometimes.
Otherwise, we're all continually "besting" other people at many things, and vice versa, unwittingly, simply because skill-level differences at anything usually exist. That just doesn't make sense to my brain.
I'm sure Bruce was likely better than many people at many, many martial arts skills. That's not "besting" or "defeating" or "winning" or anything like that. That would be my point.
I've never heard one story from anyone about losing (or winning) a private competition vs. Bruce. Have you? You know more about Bruce than anyone, Nebula!
I can never understand why there is so much hoopla about Lee not officially competing.
I don't think it matters one bit.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
d
er.
a -
Nebula_One — 10 years ago(May 16, 2015 05:18 PM)
Pking-2: "No private "let's see who is best" friendly fight/test (as far as I know but I might be ignorant)"
I personally don't think Bruce and company had decided before sparring "let's see who is the best". To them it was just a work out. However, having done this (sparring) myself with many talented fighters over the last 40+ years, I've found that's exactly the way many of those sessions went for us. At the end, quite often, one person knows in his heart that the other is far superior, and these sessions often completely changed relationships from that point onward. We did not need a trophy or a purse to clarify the issue. That's what Jim Kelly was getting at. For him to say that Bruce Lee was untouchable (and5b4 there were many other greats who also felt that way), Bruce Lee must have been something truly phenomenal indeed!
Pking-2; "Of course, perhaps I'm just being pedantic, which I do sometimes."
Possibly, but that's one of the things that make you who you are.
I wish we could have met Bruce, because that sure would have answered a lot of questions!
Pking-2: "I've never heard one story from anyone about losing (or winning) a private competition vs. Bruce. Have you? You know more about Bruce than anyone, Nebula!"
Well, I appreciate the compliment, and I'm pretty well read on Bruce Lee. However, there are others that have a LOT more knowledge of him than I do Lol!
When I started seriously researching Bruce Lee in the early 1970's, I was only interested in information coming from those who knew and trained with him personally. Anything else was just hearsay
As I said many times here, I was lucky enough to be able to discuss Bruce Lee with world Karate champion John Worley (taught by close personal friend of Lee's, Jhoon Rhee) about six months after seeing ETD when it was released here. I knew I wanted to learn more about Bruce Lee after seeing the film, but then you can't always believe what you seen on the screen. What sealed the deal for me was talking with Worley. When I had asked him if he thought Bruce could have been a world champion fighter, he told me "It's a good thing Bruce Leb68e didn't compete. It would have been futile for his opponents regardless of their size." I was extremely impressed by this statement, knowing that Worley was a world champion himself, and was so impressed with Bruce Lee!
I knew I had to not only learn more about him as a human being, but also study his training methods.
As far as stories of Lee besting other world champions?
Aside from Jim Kelly stating in the interview that started this thread, that he knew who Bruce Lee sparred with, and that they wont tell how good Lee was, there must have been some MIGHTY bruised egos!
Here is an excerpt from the book Bruce Lee: The Incomparable Fighter.
Blackbelt Magazine publisher Mito Uyehara is the one narrating the story
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z4qHatHRJlsC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=bruce+lee+champions&source=bl&ots=VZlnO9LcjQ&sig=PTlr9lf9fvywTARNEsI3_7WSKCg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FddXVeGAMcPutQXs2IGgBg&ved=0CGQQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q=bruce lee champions&f=false
His anecdotes are completely in line with Kelly and all of the other fighters who's ego's didn't stop them from relating just how good Bruce Lee really was. There truly is a code of silence among some of these fighters. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 16, 2015 06:09 PM)
I agree that I too can usually identify areas of superiority (and inferiority, and even "too close to calledness") merely training with most (but not all othersthere's the occasional "practice dog" who has unforseen capability only under actual competition, for whatever reasonbut these types are few and far between in my experience).
And I'm sure Lee and partners could do the same too, obviously.
But I guess I'm just not going to be able to call that "besting" (or "being bested by") any of them if we don't actually choose to compete, privately or "officially."
I guess that's just the way I look at things. I've never thought about all those I have trained or been trained byas "besting5b4" each other during training no matter how great the skill difference ever was. Just seems like an odd way to look at it (to me).
Until, of coursewe compete friendilythen of course the "besting" is usually clear cut. I'm just sayingMOST folks I never do any form of competing with. And I would need an account of SOMEBODY specifically doing so with Bruce for me to credit a "besting" by Lee (or of Lee, for that matter).
But I see your point that others could feel like establishing skill level outside of intentional competition could be considered so, at least to them.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
d
er. -
Nebula_One — 10 years ago(May 19, 2015 12:31 PM)
Pking-2 "But I guess I'm just not going to be able to call that "besting" (or "being bested by") any of them if we don't actually choose to compete, privately or "officially." And I would need an account of SOMEBODY specifically doing so with Bruce for me to credit a "besting" by Lee (or of Lee, for that matter)."
Imho, they all chose to compete when they decided to spar. You can bet your butt that when these Karate champions went head to head with Lee, they did their best to dominate him and I'd bet a year's wages that Bruce did his best to dominate them. I've met many great fighters in my time, and the one thing I can attest to is, elite martial artists have very big egos. Which seem to be at their biggest when surrounded by other elite martial artists!
I believe the reason they all chose to spar with one another (besides being friends of course), is because sparring with other great fighters (or a person of that caliber in Lee's case), will present the greatest challenges.
In the end, as we often have, we'll just have to agree to disagree whether these sparring sessions were competitive or not. However, please consider what the world champion fighters below have said about their experiences with Bruce Lee.
I believe they WERE bested in order for them to say these kinds of things.
"Louis Delgado was one of the finest martial artists prod5b4uced from the east coast. He's also know as the guy who almost KILLED Chuck Norris during the Grand Championship in New York, with the victory going to Delgado. His outstanding style and tournament play allowed him to be one of the few martial artist from the east coast to be featured on the cover of Black Belt magazine." (from Beyond Bruce Lee)
Okay, we know from this that Norris and Delgado are pretty evenly matched. Now, this is what Delgado says about sparring with Bruce Lee
"I have never seen anyone like Bruce Lee. I have met and sparred with several Karate men, but Bruce has been the only one who has baffled me completely. I am completely in awe when I fight with him!" (from 'Beyond Bruce Lee')
World Karate champion Ernest Lieb: "I have met Mr Lee and have had the privilege to work out with him several times. Although I have won 42 karate tournaments, I do not consider myself a match for him. His speed surpasses most of the black belts I know."
World Karate champion Pat Burleson: "Bruce Lee lived martial arts every day! He could do things in the martial arts that others could not. He was very friendly and outgoing and usually the center of attention. He was quite a martial artist. The best I've ever seen! Yet with skill that masterful, he was always very warm and friendly the kind of guy everyone wanted to meet."
(Taken from 'Coming to grips with Bruce Lee') - "Gene (LeBell) also reb68called the time when his friend, martial arts legend Bob Wall called and was all excited about working with Bruce Lee in the film Enter The Dragon.
Bob called and said, this guy is the toughest guy in the world. Of course Id been working with Bruce and I told Bob that Bruce was also the nicest guy in the world."
It's interesting that Bob Wall, being a close personal friend and business partner of Chuck Norris, would describe Bruce Lee as "The toughest guy in the world" (Steve McQueen also said this of Lee).
He could have chosen myriad things to say of Lee's skill. Yet, he chose those specific words. It is my belief that Wall felt it was true because he had witnessed it.
Surely the men above were all keenly aware of one another's others skill level, so it's interesting that Lee was the only martial artist these men had faced that utterly impressed them so. In order for them to arrive at those conclusions, there must have been some kind of a test of skill when they had sparred with one another.
I could come up with many more anecdotes from other champions similar to the ones above, but there's really no point. Consider the fact that not one single world champion fighter who had sparred with Bruce Lee ever said anything derogatory about his skill, or even claimed he was merely 'fair'.
Jim Kelly states in interviews that Bruce Lee was untouchable. Hell, he knew Bruce personally, and the rest of us do not. Of course, that's his opinion.
However, he shares that opinion with quite a few other elite martial artists.
By refusing to disclose the names of the champions Bruce Lee had sparred with, Kelly was clearly protecting egos and reputations there
Pking-2: "I guess that's just the way I look at things. I've never thought about all those I have trained or been trained byas "besting" each other during training no matter how great the skill difference ever was. Just seems like an odd way to look at it (to me)."
Well, I guess if we could clarify what the word 'training' means to each of us, it would make things much easier Lol!!
In the martial arts community I've grown up in and around, which includes my time at the Jhoon Rhee Institute, there was a tremendous difference between fighters train -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 19, 2015 01:10 PM)
Imho, they all chose to compete when they decided to spar. You can bet your butt that when these Karate champions went head to head with Lee, they did their best to dominate him and I'd bet a year's wages that Bruce did his best to dominate them.
Perhaps. Though this is where I disagree or have my doubts.
If they were training, as they say, then that's not what they were trying to do. I've never "sparred" in karate/wc/jkd but I certainly have in boxing and wrestlingand most sparring isn't about dominance or winning, in my experience. Portions, I suppose so, but not vast swathes.
So at best, even if I figure that of course during sparring they sporadically wanted to "dominate" to determine whether some offense was effectiveI have to imagine that means that Lee was "bested" roughly as often as he "bested" others, otherwise it was ineffectual training. You don't "spar" to simply compete for dominance most of the time.
That's all fine. But it doesn't result in Lee doing the besting, per se. It results in sparring as I assume it, where both sides get to "best" each other in turn to work on offense while the other works on defense, then switch, repeat, focus on the next novel technique set (rather than one's dominant techniques) ad infinitum. Maybe not of course. Who knows?
But I know what effective sparring has always been and if it is
usually
dominance than you switch it up to find other work that is more beneficial to both partners. One-sided dominance is one of the
least
effective training exercises there is, in my book. I have to imagine they know at least as much as I know about effective training.
In order for them to arrive at those conclusions, there must have been some kind of a test of skill when they had sparred with one another.
Except they
all
consciously choose to omit that there was a test of skill or won/lost competition.
That means a lot to me.
I think it means they are possibly if not likely theorizing. Otherwise, it would be trivial to say "we competed and Lee won" if they are trying to convey that Lee bested them. I just read this obfuscation as significant; everything must be phrased in a way to praise/promote Bruce without acknowledging that there was a competition vs. Bruce.
Of course there might have been, I admit. It just seems convoluted to avoid it
particularly
if, as you say, their point is to acknowledge it.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
d
er. -
victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 19, 2015 03:32 PM)
Bruce Lee bested many champions. Bruce lee was an outspoken guy, in fact he upset many people when he was alive..not intentionally of course. He put tournaments down, he put karate down, he put styles down. In fact he put everything down.
In sparring, it would be a good opportunity for the champions to let Bruce lee know, he didn't know what he was talking about. That he was just an actor and he shouldn't talk so much. But we all know, it is these sparring sessions, the champions found out that Bruce lee knew exactly what he was talking about.
They discovered that Bruce lee had superior fighting ability. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 19, 2015 06:52 PM)
Perhaps. Speculation.
In fact, by definition, speculation carefully curated to omit the vastly more likely outcome which would be everyone "besting" each other, too many times to count, in minor training ways, just like ALL other fighters have trained.
Not to mentioncontradictory to your assertion that Lee (or any of them) were "outspoken" as outspokenness implies they would speak out transparently about it, rather than the surmisings we get.
It just doesn't make sense that we'd know all about so many of their other resultsbut we must adopt discretion if Bruce was involved. -
Nebula_One — 10 years ago(May 22, 2015 09:43 AM)
Pking-2 "I've never "sparred" in karate/wc/jkd but I certainly have in boxing and wrestlingand most sparring isn't about dominance or winning, in my experience. Portions, I suppose so, but not vast swathes."
It's all about the attitudes of the people sparring.
A landed kick or punch can cause great psychological damage to the person getting hit. Especially if this happens time and time again.
Now, if this does happen, I think you would agree that the one getting repeatedly hit/scored on, is clearly inferior to the other. When Delgado said he was completely baffled and awestruck by Lee when they fought, obviously he couldn't deal with the challenges that sparring with Bruce Lee had presented. Therefore Delgado's skill was inferior. The same can be said regarding Lieb, Burleson, Kelly and Wall among others. SOMETHING in their sparring matches convinced them they were no match for Bruce Lee.
Pking-2 "I have to imagine that means that Lee was "bested" roughly as often as he "bested" others, otherwise it was ineffectual training."
Well, you have to remember that Lee was there in the capacity of instructor for the most part, so it is to be expected if it was one sided. Many of these guys had said that the amount of give and take in terms of sharing knowledge was Bruce giving 95% and receiving 5%. From what I know of Bruce Lee (and more importantly, what was said about him by the martial artists he had trained with) the guy really was a walking martial arts encyclopedia.
I believe there IS something to be gained from sparring with superior fighters. Again, they will present challenges that others who are closer in skill cannot. I'm sure you will agree, we learn much more from a defeat than a victory. As long as one comes to understand WHY he/she is getting hit, it can be beneficial to the lesser skilled. The way Jim Kelly tells it, Bruce Lee must have been at least 'mostly' untouchable for so many premiere martial artists to not only say what they have about his skill, but also want to seek him out for instruction.
It can't be reiterated enough that the things that have been said about Bruce Lee are coming from many of the greatest fighters and masters who have ever walked the earth. Not from a bunch of Joe blows in some small town neighborhood.
Pking-2 "You don't "spar" to simply compete for dominance most of the time."
I agree with that for the most part. However, we are talking about an elite group of fighters who are used to winning, and have tremendous egos. It's in their nature to be highly competitive. Especially when sparring with a guy who holds no real rank in any martial art, and shows them the error of their ways
Pking-2 "That's all fine. But it doesn't result in Lee doing the besting, per se. It results in sparring as I assume it, where both sides get to "best" each other in turn to work on offense while the other works on defense, then switch, repeat, focus on the next novel technique set (rather than one's dominant techniques) ad infinitum. Maybe not of course. Who knows?"
What you have described here is more in line with drills, than free sparring. Due to the fact that you have put restrictions on what each can do. When I had my students spar, it was all out anything goes. That separated the wheat from the chaff so to speak. I would then have the wheat assist me in teaching the chaff. I'm sure you would agree there are myriad ways in which to train. Some being very straightforward, and others being quite unorthodox.
Pking-2 "But I know what effective sparring has always been and if it is usually dominance than you switch it up to find other work that is more beneficial to both partners. One-sided dominance is one of the least effective training exercises there is, in my book."
Again, I agree to a point. I'd bet they viewed spab68rring with Bruce Lee as an exercise in problem solving. Please do not misunderstand me. I'm sure Bruce learned things from those sparring sessions as well, as he was in constant search of knowledge. World Karate champion John Longstreet (representing the Jhoon Rhee Institute here in Minneapolis), has a reputation for DESTROYING his sparring partners! That never seemed to affect his training negatively.
Pking-2 "Except they all consciously choose to omit that there was a test of skill or won/lost competition."
I don't believe they had omitted this fact. It's just that these tests were unofficial. Delgado had come right out and said he fought Bruce Lee. Apparently, many times. For Delgado to admit he was completely baffled and awestruck by Lee, he must have given it his all each and every time. Otherwise why make such a statement? He surely wasn't getting anything from promoting Bruce Lee's reputation. None of those guys were. So what would be their motive for putting Bruce Lee on a pedestal? It just doesn't make sense.
They only way it does make sense is if they are merely relating experiences.
To come to the conclusion he was no match for Bruce Lee even though he had won 4 -
victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 22, 2015 10:53 AM)
Jim Demile said he would have loved to have ko'ed Lee, as Lee was always embarassing him. But he couldnt touch Bruce lee.
Id bet those tournament champs would have felt the same as Demile. Bruce lee touching you at will and embarassing you the tournament champ. Im sure they would have loved to have been able to hit Bruce lee, like Bruce lee was able to do anything he wanted to do to them.
Skipper Mullins said hed pick Lee in any street situation. I cant beleive he would come to that conclusion from anything other having sparred full contact with Bruce Lee. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 22, 2015 04:49 PM)
Jim Demile said he would have loved to have ko'ed Lee, as Lee was always embarassing him. But he couldnt touch Bruce lee.
Every grappler and boxer who has ever become even moderately competent can touch their opponent repeatedly and rather quickly. There is not one documented example of this ever failing to be true, except for the (very) occasional quick preemptive KO. It's just a nonsense position regarding how Lee or anyone else in the history of fighting has ever faught.
As praise, it is fine.
As a literal description of full-contact fighting vs. anyone, it is nonsense.
Bruce lee touching you at will and embarassing you the tournament champ. Im sure they would have loved to have been able to hit Bruce lee, like Bruce lee was able to do anything he wanted to do to them.
Even if Lee was "dominant" that's not at all the same thing as doing anything you want, and also not being touched. That makes no sense.
Except for the (very) occasional quick first round knock outthere is not one example of a striker being so elusive that he couldn't be struck to some degree.
Skipper Mullins said hed pick Lee in any street situation. I cant beleive he would come to that conclusion from anything other having sparred full contact with Bruce Lee.
Sheesh. This is what I mean by cherry picking.
When the quote is "Bruce never confronted any big men to my knowledge. There are stories out there, but none I personally know of. I will say this; I would have picked Bruce in any street situation" then the quote literally supports that Bruce did NOT fight any of these bigger men in question, as far as Mullin knows.
And the interview is crystal clear that Bruce worked with Skipper specifically at tournaments on foot movement and his backfistwhich means not in private sparring sessions! OtherwiseBruce would have worked with skipper outside of tournaments working on sparring!
And yes, I'm willing to allow that maybe secret dominant sparring sesssions with Mullins still
possible
but you literally cannot be attempting to read these things academically and coming to such baseless conclusions that these quotes support it!
At best, any intellectually honest reading must be that its dubious whether Lee
ever
sparred with ANY of these guys, according to Skipper! So we'd better do more reading if we're trying to say Lee "bested" everybody, let alone "bested" everybody without being "bested" let alone touched.
Note that Skipper is crystal clear about losing to Chuck, to Joe, fighting Steen, fighting Wallace, sparring hard with Rhee (in
exactly
the way I assert sparring tends to gowith one working on offense then defense rather than dominating) and saying nothing of the sort vs. Lee. If its a "code of silence" Mullins s1354eems to
not
care about it so I can't imagine it becomes important to become opaque about whether there were fights ONLY when Lee's name appears.
http://www.usadojo.com/interviews/Interview-with-Skipper-Mullins.htm
It just seems more likely that Lee didn't spar this guy. Lewis says he didn't spar him. Norris says he did spar but it was fun (doesn't sound like dominance). There's video of Lee sparring Inosantoand while Lee looks better, everybody involved (like I would assume) gets "touched" repeatedly.
http://jkdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3795
So now students like Inosanto can touch him but nobody else can do so. Right.
It's just weird to try to weave magic narratives around what was REAL martial arts stuff.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
d
er.