Who's Name's Will Jim Kelly Not Disclose?
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pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 16, 2015 06:09 PM)
I agree that I too can usually identify areas of superiority (and inferiority, and even "too close to calledness") merely training with most (but not all othersthere's the occasional "practice dog" who has unforseen capability only under actual competition, for whatever reasonbut these types are few and far between in my experience).
And I'm sure Lee and partners could do the same too, obviously.
But I guess I'm just not going to be able to call that "besting" (or "being bested by") any of them if we don't actually choose to compete, privately or "officially."
I guess that's just the way I look at things. I've never thought about all those I have trained or been trained byas "besting5b4" each other during training no matter how great the skill difference ever was. Just seems like an odd way to look at it (to me).
Until, of coursewe compete friendilythen of course the "besting" is usually clear cut. I'm just sayingMOST folks I never do any form of competing with. And I would need an account of SOMEBODY specifically doing so with Bruce for me to credit a "besting" by Lee (or of Lee, for that matter).
But I see your point that others could feel like establishing skill level outside of intentional competition could be considered so, at least to them.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
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Nebula_One — 10 years ago(May 19, 2015 12:31 PM)
Pking-2 "But I guess I'm just not going to be able to call that "besting" (or "being bested by") any of them if we don't actually choose to compete, privately or "officially." And I would need an account of SOMEBODY specifically doing so with Bruce for me to credit a "besting" by Lee (or of Lee, for that matter)."
Imho, they all chose to compete when they decided to spar. You can bet your butt that when these Karate champions went head to head with Lee, they did their best to dominate him and I'd bet a year's wages that Bruce did his best to dominate them. I've met many great fighters in my time, and the one thing I can attest to is, elite martial artists have very big egos. Which seem to be at their biggest when surrounded by other elite martial artists!
I believe the reason they all chose to spar with one another (besides being friends of course), is because sparring with other great fighters (or a person of that caliber in Lee's case), will present the greatest challenges.
In the end, as we often have, we'll just have to agree to disagree whether these sparring sessions were competitive or not. However, please consider what the world champion fighters below have said about their experiences with Bruce Lee.
I believe they WERE bested in order for them to say these kinds of things.
"Louis Delgado was one of the finest martial artists prod5b4uced from the east coast. He's also know as the guy who almost KILLED Chuck Norris during the Grand Championship in New York, with the victory going to Delgado. His outstanding style and tournament play allowed him to be one of the few martial artist from the east coast to be featured on the cover of Black Belt magazine." (from Beyond Bruce Lee)
Okay, we know from this that Norris and Delgado are pretty evenly matched. Now, this is what Delgado says about sparring with Bruce Lee
"I have never seen anyone like Bruce Lee. I have met and sparred with several Karate men, but Bruce has been the only one who has baffled me completely. I am completely in awe when I fight with him!" (from 'Beyond Bruce Lee')
World Karate champion Ernest Lieb: "I have met Mr Lee and have had the privilege to work out with him several times. Although I have won 42 karate tournaments, I do not consider myself a match for him. His speed surpasses most of the black belts I know."
World Karate champion Pat Burleson: "Bruce Lee lived martial arts every day! He could do things in the martial arts that others could not. He was very friendly and outgoing and usually the center of attention. He was quite a martial artist. The best I've ever seen! Yet with skill that masterful, he was always very warm and friendly the kind of guy everyone wanted to meet."
(Taken from 'Coming to grips with Bruce Lee') - "Gene (LeBell) also reb68called the time when his friend, martial arts legend Bob Wall called and was all excited about working with Bruce Lee in the film Enter The Dragon.
Bob called and said, this guy is the toughest guy in the world. Of course Id been working with Bruce and I told Bob that Bruce was also the nicest guy in the world."
It's interesting that Bob Wall, being a close personal friend and business partner of Chuck Norris, would describe Bruce Lee as "The toughest guy in the world" (Steve McQueen also said this of Lee).
He could have chosen myriad things to say of Lee's skill. Yet, he chose those specific words. It is my belief that Wall felt it was true because he had witnessed it.
Surely the men above were all keenly aware of one another's others skill level, so it's interesting that Lee was the only martial artist these men had faced that utterly impressed them so. In order for them to arrive at those conclusions, there must have been some kind of a test of skill when they had sparred with one another.
I could come up with many more anecdotes from other champions similar to the ones above, but there's really no point. Consider the fact that not one single world champion fighter who had sparred with Bruce Lee ever said anything derogatory about his skill, or even claimed he was merely 'fair'.
Jim Kelly states in interviews that Bruce Lee was untouchable. Hell, he knew Bruce personally, and the rest of us do not. Of course, that's his opinion.
However, he shares that opinion with quite a few other elite martial artists.
By refusing to disclose the names of the champions Bruce Lee had sparred with, Kelly was clearly protecting egos and reputations there
Pking-2: "I guess that's just the way I look at things. I've never thought about all those I have trained or been trained byas "besting" each other during training no matter how great the skill difference ever was. Just seems like an odd way to look at it (to me)."
Well, I guess if we could clarify what the word 'training' means to each of us, it would make things much easier Lol!!
In the martial arts community I've grown up in and around, which includes my time at the Jhoon Rhee Institute, there was a tremendous difference between fighters train -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 19, 2015 01:10 PM)
Imho, they all chose to compete when they decided to spar. You can bet your butt that when these Karate champions went head to head with Lee, they did their best to dominate him and I'd bet a year's wages that Bruce did his best to dominate them.
Perhaps. Though this is where I disagree or have my doubts.
If they were training, as they say, then that's not what they were trying to do. I've never "sparred" in karate/wc/jkd but I certainly have in boxing and wrestlingand most sparring isn't about dominance or winning, in my experience. Portions, I suppose so, but not vast swathes.
So at best, even if I figure that of course during sparring they sporadically wanted to "dominate" to determine whether some offense was effectiveI have to imagine that means that Lee was "bested" roughly as often as he "bested" others, otherwise it was ineffectual training. You don't "spar" to simply compete for dominance most of the time.
That's all fine. But it doesn't result in Lee doing the besting, per se. It results in sparring as I assume it, where both sides get to "best" each other in turn to work on offense while the other works on defense, then switch, repeat, focus on the next novel technique set (rather than one's dominant techniques) ad infinitum. Maybe not of course. Who knows?
But I know what effective sparring has always been and if it is
usually
dominance than you switch it up to find other work that is more beneficial to both partners. One-sided dominance is one of the
least
effective training exercises there is, in my book. I have to imagine they know at least as much as I know about effective training.
In order for them to arrive at those conclusions, there must have been some kind of a test of skill when they had sparred with one another.
Except they
all
consciously choose to omit that there was a test of skill or won/lost competition.
That means a lot to me.
I think it means they are possibly if not likely theorizing. Otherwise, it would be trivial to say "we competed and Lee won" if they are trying to convey that Lee bested them. I just read this obfuscation as significant; everything must be phrased in a way to praise/promote Bruce without acknowledging that there was a competition vs. Bruce.
Of course there might have been, I admit. It just seems convoluted to avoid it
particularly
if, as you say, their point is to acknowledge it.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
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victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 19, 2015 03:32 PM)
Bruce Lee bested many champions. Bruce lee was an outspoken guy, in fact he upset many people when he was alive..not intentionally of course. He put tournaments down, he put karate down, he put styles down. In fact he put everything down.
In sparring, it would be a good opportunity for the champions to let Bruce lee know, he didn't know what he was talking about. That he was just an actor and he shouldn't talk so much. But we all know, it is these sparring sessions, the champions found out that Bruce lee knew exactly what he was talking about.
They discovered that Bruce lee had superior fighting ability. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 19, 2015 06:52 PM)
Perhaps. Speculation.
In fact, by definition, speculation carefully curated to omit the vastly more likely outcome which would be everyone "besting" each other, too many times to count, in minor training ways, just like ALL other fighters have trained.
Not to mentioncontradictory to your assertion that Lee (or any of them) were "outspoken" as outspokenness implies they would speak out transparently about it, rather than the surmisings we get.
It just doesn't make sense that we'd know all about so many of their other resultsbut we must adopt discretion if Bruce was involved. -
Nebula_One — 10 years ago(May 22, 2015 09:43 AM)
Pking-2 "I've never "sparred" in karate/wc/jkd but I certainly have in boxing and wrestlingand most sparring isn't about dominance or winning, in my experience. Portions, I suppose so, but not vast swathes."
It's all about the attitudes of the people sparring.
A landed kick or punch can cause great psychological damage to the person getting hit. Especially if this happens time and time again.
Now, if this does happen, I think you would agree that the one getting repeatedly hit/scored on, is clearly inferior to the other. When Delgado said he was completely baffled and awestruck by Lee when they fought, obviously he couldn't deal with the challenges that sparring with Bruce Lee had presented. Therefore Delgado's skill was inferior. The same can be said regarding Lieb, Burleson, Kelly and Wall among others. SOMETHING in their sparring matches convinced them they were no match for Bruce Lee.
Pking-2 "I have to imagine that means that Lee was "bested" roughly as often as he "bested" others, otherwise it was ineffectual training."
Well, you have to remember that Lee was there in the capacity of instructor for the most part, so it is to be expected if it was one sided. Many of these guys had said that the amount of give and take in terms of sharing knowledge was Bruce giving 95% and receiving 5%. From what I know of Bruce Lee (and more importantly, what was said about him by the martial artists he had trained with) the guy really was a walking martial arts encyclopedia.
I believe there IS something to be gained from sparring with superior fighters. Again, they will present challenges that others who are closer in skill cannot. I'm sure you will agree, we learn much more from a defeat than a victory. As long as one comes to understand WHY he/she is getting hit, it can be beneficial to the lesser skilled. The way Jim Kelly tells it, Bruce Lee must have been at least 'mostly' untouchable for so many premiere martial artists to not only say what they have about his skill, but also want to seek him out for instruction.
It can't be reiterated enough that the things that have been said about Bruce Lee are coming from many of the greatest fighters and masters who have ever walked the earth. Not from a bunch of Joe blows in some small town neighborhood.
Pking-2 "You don't "spar" to simply compete for dominance most of the time."
I agree with that for the most part. However, we are talking about an elite group of fighters who are used to winning, and have tremendous egos. It's in their nature to be highly competitive. Especially when sparring with a guy who holds no real rank in any martial art, and shows them the error of their ways
Pking-2 "That's all fine. But it doesn't result in Lee doing the besting, per se. It results in sparring as I assume it, where both sides get to "best" each other in turn to work on offense while the other works on defense, then switch, repeat, focus on the next novel technique set (rather than one's dominant techniques) ad infinitum. Maybe not of course. Who knows?"
What you have described here is more in line with drills, than free sparring. Due to the fact that you have put restrictions on what each can do. When I had my students spar, it was all out anything goes. That separated the wheat from the chaff so to speak. I would then have the wheat assist me in teaching the chaff. I'm sure you would agree there are myriad ways in which to train. Some being very straightforward, and others being quite unorthodox.
Pking-2 "But I know what effective sparring has always been and if it is usually dominance than you switch it up to find other work that is more beneficial to both partners. One-sided dominance is one of the least effective training exercises there is, in my book."
Again, I agree to a point. I'd bet they viewed spab68rring with Bruce Lee as an exercise in problem solving. Please do not misunderstand me. I'm sure Bruce learned things from those sparring sessions as well, as he was in constant search of knowledge. World Karate champion John Longstreet (representing the Jhoon Rhee Institute here in Minneapolis), has a reputation for DESTROYING his sparring partners! That never seemed to affect his training negatively.
Pking-2 "Except they all consciously choose to omit that there was a test of skill or won/lost competition."
I don't believe they had omitted this fact. It's just that these tests were unofficial. Delgado had come right out and said he fought Bruce Lee. Apparently, many times. For Delgado to admit he was completely baffled and awestruck by Lee, he must have given it his all each and every time. Otherwise why make such a statement? He surely wasn't getting anything from promoting Bruce Lee's reputation. None of those guys were. So what would be their motive for putting Bruce Lee on a pedestal? It just doesn't make sense.
They only way it does make sense is if they are merely relating experiences.
To come to the conclusion he was no match for Bruce Lee even though he had won 4 -
victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 22, 2015 10:53 AM)
Jim Demile said he would have loved to have ko'ed Lee, as Lee was always embarassing him. But he couldnt touch Bruce lee.
Id bet those tournament champs would have felt the same as Demile. Bruce lee touching you at will and embarassing you the tournament champ. Im sure they would have loved to have been able to hit Bruce lee, like Bruce lee was able to do anything he wanted to do to them.
Skipper Mullins said hed pick Lee in any street situation. I cant beleive he would come to that conclusion from anything other having sparred full contact with Bruce Lee. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 22, 2015 04:49 PM)
Jim Demile said he would have loved to have ko'ed Lee, as Lee was always embarassing him. But he couldnt touch Bruce lee.
Every grappler and boxer who has ever become even moderately competent can touch their opponent repeatedly and rather quickly. There is not one documented example of this ever failing to be true, except for the (very) occasional quick preemptive KO. It's just a nonsense position regarding how Lee or anyone else in the history of fighting has ever faught.
As praise, it is fine.
As a literal description of full-contact fighting vs. anyone, it is nonsense.
Bruce lee touching you at will and embarassing you the tournament champ. Im sure they would have loved to have been able to hit Bruce lee, like Bruce lee was able to do anything he wanted to do to them.
Even if Lee was "dominant" that's not at all the same thing as doing anything you want, and also not being touched. That makes no sense.
Except for the (very) occasional quick first round knock outthere is not one example of a striker being so elusive that he couldn't be struck to some degree.
Skipper Mullins said hed pick Lee in any street situation. I cant beleive he would come to that conclusion from anything other having sparred full contact with Bruce Lee.
Sheesh. This is what I mean by cherry picking.
When the quote is "Bruce never confronted any big men to my knowledge. There are stories out there, but none I personally know of. I will say this; I would have picked Bruce in any street situation" then the quote literally supports that Bruce did NOT fight any of these bigger men in question, as far as Mullin knows.
And the interview is crystal clear that Bruce worked with Skipper specifically at tournaments on foot movement and his backfistwhich means not in private sparring sessions! OtherwiseBruce would have worked with skipper outside of tournaments working on sparring!
And yes, I'm willing to allow that maybe secret dominant sparring sesssions with Mullins still
possible
but you literally cannot be attempting to read these things academically and coming to such baseless conclusions that these quotes support it!
At best, any intellectually honest reading must be that its dubious whether Lee
ever
sparred with ANY of these guys, according to Skipper! So we'd better do more reading if we're trying to say Lee "bested" everybody, let alone "bested" everybody without being "bested" let alone touched.
Note that Skipper is crystal clear about losing to Chuck, to Joe, fighting Steen, fighting Wallace, sparring hard with Rhee (in
exactly
the way I assert sparring tends to gowith one working on offense then defense rather than dominating) and saying nothing of the sort vs. Lee. If its a "code of silence" Mullins s1354eems to
not
care about it so I can't imagine it becomes important to become opaque about whether there were fights ONLY when Lee's name appears.
http://www.usadojo.com/interviews/Interview-with-Skipper-Mullins.htm
It just seems more likely that Lee didn't spar this guy. Lewis says he didn't spar him. Norris says he did spar but it was fun (doesn't sound like dominance). There's video of Lee sparring Inosantoand while Lee looks better, everybody involved (like I would assume) gets "touched" repeatedly.
http://jkdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3795
So now students like Inosanto can touch him but nobody else can do so. Right.
It's just weird to try to weave magic narratives around what was REAL martial arts stuff.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
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victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 22, 2015 06:04 PM)
Some things never change around here, I get embarrassed reading some of the things I have to read and literally have to bite my tongue.
Martial artists Bruce lee encountered said Lee had superior fighting ability compared to them. That's a smoking gun literally. End of discussion. We are grown ups here. We don't need to hear anyone say Lee beat the bejesus out of them, fighters have got some dignity you know. Nobody needs anyone to be that blunt. Why cant some people just give Bruce lee credit, and stop trying to turn something that's so obviously positive into something negative and try put a downer on things? Only someone with severe issues would even attempt to.
I don't need to hear anymore than that. That they thought Lee had superior fighting ability. That they didn't consider themselves a match for Bruce lee. That theyd pick Lee in any street situation. I don't need to hear peoples fantasys about people besting Lee in grappling matches when they gave Lee instruction in BJJ or judo or whatever it is you do on the floor. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 22, 2015 07:43 PM)
Martial artists Bruce lee encountered said Lee had superior fighting ability compared to them. That's a smoking gun literally.
Some, sure.
I'm showing you why that is nonsensical "logic."
It means that those who said he did notalso hold a smoking gun, "literally."
So if you use it for the former, you use it for the latter and it means that Bruce Lee couldn't block Chuck Norris' kicks and so on. Martial artist Bruce Lee encountered have said lots of things. That's our basis.
Yet you choose not to, which would be a form of double standarding on what comprises a smoking gun.
You literally put merit on a person (Lee) because he was either stingy with praise or his praise of others went unrecorded. Yet that presence/absence of praise proves
nothing.
We don't need to hear anyone say Lee beat the bejesus out of them, fighters have got some dignity you know
Actually you prove the opposite. I'm the one here that doesn't need to hear or say it as I think that if it occurred it only occurred in inconsequential mutual "practice" ways which would be two folks beating up each other nothing interesting about that;
you're
the one who literally wants to say that Lee beat the bejesus out of others AND that it wasn't mere mutual contact. More-or-less, baselessly.
Except the ones that trained with him and didn't think that.
That they didn't consider themselves1c84 a match for Bruce lee.
Except the ones that didn't say that.
That theyd pick Lee in any street situation.
In the very same conversation, that personwhich YOU assert fought Bruceis crystal clear that Joe Lewis was tougher, Allan Steen was meaner, and Chuck Norris was smarter. Yet, you refuse to be intellectually honest enough to conclude that based on YOUR logicthat means Chuck as a smarter martial artist than Bruce. And so on and on and on
I don't need to hear peoples fantasys about people besting Lee in grappling matches when they gave Lee instruction in BJJ or judo or whatever it is you do on the floor.
If you don't know, then there's NO way you should be concluding that Bruce bested ANYONE or was untouchable by grapplers, yet you have done so.
If you do know, then you're dishonest.
Either wayYOU make the respect of Bruce Lee appear to be irrational confirmation bias, rather than sensible. So I still and always will dispute you because Bruce Lee deserves FAR better than that.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
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victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 23, 2015 06:22 AM)
Jim Kelly said he had heard stories about who Bruce lee sparred with, and the conclusions hes coming to are that Bruce lee was untouchable in sparring sessions from what hes seen and heard. Jim Kelly is not saying Lee has never been touched, so bringing up stories about Chuck being able to land a spinning kick is petty and reaching and neither here or there. There were no witnesses to that other than Norris word, but he goes on to say he was never able to land that kick again anyway.
Whenver Lee has been on show, its always stories of how overwhelming bruce lee was. Peter Archer said he saw Bruce spar with Bob wall and said Bob was having much difficulty with Bruce lee. Bruces sheer speed and athletism made Wall look real slow. Although Archer had seen many great martial artists who physically great at what they did. He had never seen anyone with the poetry in motion Bruce had. It was like a sixth sense Lee had and that was made Lee so great.
Jim Kelly is saying from what he has heard and the peoples experiences they had with Bruce lee is that Lee was untouchable. Again, Jim Kelly is not saying Bruce lee has never been touched. So some people need to stop being overly sensitive about things, it just reflects badly one oneself. Im not sure if Chuck has sparred with Jim Kelly, but JIm has I remember once mentioned Chuck and Bruce lee and said Chuck wasn't in Lees class and wasn't comparable to Lee in any way. And I remember correctly, Jim has intimated that he sparred with Chuck, whether Chuck shared any stories with Jim I don't know though.
Skipper Mullins is referring to the people he fought in competion, because I assume that is what the interviwer is asking. But bottom line, is hed pick Lee in any street situation.
Skipper obviously thinks Bruce lee was the toughest in terms of tough to beat. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 23, 2015 08:26 AM)
Jim Kelly is not saying Lee has never been touched,
Actually, Jim Kelly seems to be saying he thinks Lee has never been touched.
Unless we're now agreeing that "untouchable" is hyperbole, even from Lee's most positive praisers. In which case, we do agree; its a fine phrase but its not to be taken literally. Therefore any subsequent declarations based on it should amount roughly to "Lee had sound, effective defense" which is a very different proposition that doesn't seem dubious.
There were no witnesses to that other than Norris word,
The point is there are no witnesses to any of these claims, except of course the claimants. And it is intellectually dishonest therefore to cherry pick from some claimants over others, baselessly. It's no more likely Chuck Norris lies than Jim Kelly lies.
However, its vastly more likely that hyperbole gets used in storytelling, so of course Lee could be touched like everyone else, and of course Norris' kicks could be blocked like everyone else. Either read people fairly and if not literally, at least with a consistent level of nuance. Otherwise its merely an exercise in being demeaning to anyone who doesn't confirm one's bias. And that's intellectually dishonest and in my book, even unethical if knowingly intentional.
Ascribing that these men lie about doing poorly but not about doing well is dubious. IF you use that toolor even judge it likelythen it instantly becomes likely that Lee did not tell others about his struggles and when he was bested because men lie about doing poorly. And so it gets us nowhere, except exposes who we are propagandizing for if we use "the negative about Bruce people are liars, the positive about Bruce people are honest!"
To be fair, Victor, I don't think you think about thinking, so its not unethical. And Neb on the other branch only process Lee and info fairly. But if you want to know why I argue, and why I argue against both of you differentlythat's still why.
Skipper Mullins is referring to the people he fought in competion, because I assume that is what the interviwer is asking.
Since its a known truism to both at the time of the interview that Bruce never competedits clearly about outside-of-competition experience, to me.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
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victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 23, 2015 10:55 AM)
Again, im sure Jim Kelly has had many talks with people in his own field. With tournament fighters on the circuit. Im sure they talk about their experiences with Bruce lee. Im 100% certain Jim has spoken at length with people who have sparred or encountered Lee on some level. Im sure they've told Jim they couldn't touch him. Id put a lot of money on that. Jim Kelly is not saying Lee has never been touched, he only met Lee in 1970s. But Jim Kelly has stood in front of Lee, so if he either thought Lee was untouchable because he himself didn't think he could touch Lee, hes entitled to that opinion. If the tournament fighters Jim spoke to, and the tails he heard led him to believe nobody was able to touch him, hes entitled to say he was untouchable.
I cant understand why some people wont accept that Bruce lee bested people when evidence suggests he did, id put my life on it? Actually I do know why some wont accept it, but I will bite my tongue and not throw the insults, im tired of that now.
Its clear Bruce lee bested many people in his lifetime. Countless people have co5b4me forward admitting that. From Lees students, to his peers like Delgado. Many have admitted inferirotiy to Bruce lee, so no historian would have a problem with believing Lee had bested many tournament fighters. Or no historian would find it hard to believe Lee could have done or did, without having to think Lee has been bested as well. Either way, does it really matter?
So im not comfortable with certain individuals behaviour here with this desire for wanting people to believe Lee had been bested? Its like grasped out of thin air on a wing and a prayer. Wishful thinking almost. Who said they bested Lee or were better? That would be interesting to hear.It could be that I come to the conclusion that they are taking a posthumous cheapshot or even lying, but I would take each case on its own merit. I wouldn't totally dismiss the idea immediately even if I instinctively believe it to be BS.
Im sure while Lee was learning Wing CHun he has been bested by William Cheung or Wong shuen Luen at some point in his development though. But that's irrelevant to what Jim Kelly is implying during that snapshot of time. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 24, 2015 08:51 PM)
I cant understand why some people wont accept that Bruce lee bested people when evidence suggests he did
I accept that he bested likely all these people in myriad ways.
I just reject that that's
all
that occurred. That's all. If you reread you'll notice that this has nothing to do with whether Bruce was skilled or fast or impressive. He was. Justbig deal. I'm skilled and fast and impressive compared to 98% of the people I train; that doesn't imply that I "best" them. And it certainly doesn't that I am never "bested." It's just a conclusion that seems like it doesn't follow.
And I MUST reject a conclusion that the
only
thing that occurred is Lee "besting" othersrather than it being mutual and standard "too many to count bestings on both sides because that's how training goes" based on NOBODY talking about it clearly. That's the worst possible basis to use imaginable. It basically means we should conclude it was one sided defeats based on NOBODY discussing or mentioning one sided defeats. That's the opposite of reasoning and usage of evidence.
Its clear Bruce lee bested many people in his lifetime.
And its clear that he was bested by many people in his lifetime
lest he never trained realistically nor learned anything significant.
That's my point.
So if there are too many bestings to count on all sidesthen its not honest to count only the times Lee bested others.
Im sure while Lee was learning Wing CHun he has been bested by William Cheung or Wong shuen Luen at some point in his development though.
Sure, and because Lee loved to try and learn OTHER stuffyou should be equally sure that's how it goes. There's nothing special about WC that would "best" Lee. It's called training. It applies to all arts.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
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victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 26, 2015 08:19 AM)
Not honest to count only the time Lee bested others?
So Jim Kelly is a dishonest man as he is commenting on the times he knows Lee bested champions? Jim kelly needs his wrist slapped for not talking about things he and most likely nobody on earth knows about ie besting Lee? SMH
Theres enough people who intentionlly and knowingly talk utter rubbish about Lee online, almost make a living out of it - yet we have an individual on this thread and board trying to lay a guilt trip on people who give Lee credit and choose not to say negative things about him? The audacity literally astounds me and leaves me speechless.
Someone is obviously trying to play the moral high ground game, but doing a poor job of it. As i say, some things dont change around here. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 26, 2015 09:39 AM)
Not honest to count only the time Lee bested others?
It wouldn't be honest, if that's not what occurred.
o Jim Kelly is a dishonest man as he is commenting on the times he knows Lee bested champions?
No.
You're
a dishonest man to conclude that Lee bested others that nobody says he did, or to say that only it was only one-sided, when nobody says that either.
You're the one who literally concealed stuff like Mullins' statement that he's not aware of Lee fighting let alone besting any of these folks. In order to argue that Mullins thinks Lee bested these folks, including himself.
This implies that you are saying that Mullins would know from sparring who defeated whom. Yet in the very same article you're told stuff like Mullins knows that Chuck was the smartest fighter. To be intellectually honest, not only would you not be using the concealment/cherry picking tacticsbut you'd likely be inclined towards deducing that Mullins has confirmed that Chuck is a smarter fighter than Bruce. Yet you don't bother with complete academics.
It might not be the truthbut there's still an intellectually honest way to read the materialand you're eschewing even that.
yet we have an individual on this thread and board trying to lay a guilt trip on people who give Lee credit and choose not to say negative things about him?
You
should
feel guilty for saying that Bruce Lee defeated folks like Skipper Mullins, when all signs point to no.
You're the rubbish that tarnishes Bruce Lee's fandom as beep Don't be that.
There are many ways to appreciate Bruce Lee without manufacturing defeats of specific others, baselessly. You're not even aware that your "fandom" is contingent upon irrational demeaningness to others.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
d
er. -
victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 26, 2015 11:26 AM)
Bruce lee bested many champions and that is obviously a sensitive issue for his critics. The guys Lee bested outside of competion shouldn't make critics insecure but they obviously are very insecure. They cant take comfort about boasting about their idols trophies in their cabinet alone, that is not enough for them.
Bruce lee critics don't mind saying Lee bested people, so long as we assume they bested Lee as well? Well, im sorry I cant do that on the basis someone claims they landed a spinning hook kick once. Bruce lee said Norris had nice fancy kicks, but he cant punch and hes too stiff. These karate champs certainly didn't that's for sure. Jon Benn said Norris told him that nobody could beat Bruce lee and that he would be no match for Lee. Ive heard through the grapevine that Norris denied saying that. Norris might have some credibility to me and others if he said I never said that to Jon Benn. But he would have to mention that name Jon Benn. That way Jon Benn could reply back in actual fact you did say it. Which Norris did. But Jon might feel guilty in fact for revealing private conversations. Of course Norris would have loved Jon to have kept that private. Norris knows he has many fans and they don't want to hear Norris admit anything. I give credit to Norris for that though, he is responsible and obviously cares very much for his fans.
Jim Kelly has no problem acknowledging that he felt Lee was a level above anyone he had encountered. Jim Kelly should know, he fought Benny Urquidez to a draw afterall. So im not going to feel guilty reiterating what he implies. He was there, he knows more than me, people can learn lot from him and his feedback he got from people who were also there. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 26, 2015 12:04 PM)
Bruce lee bested many champions and that is obviously a sensitive issue for his critics.
All
these guys bested many champions.
Oops, you don't want that acknowledged.
Bruce lee critics don't mind saying Lee bested people, so long as we assume they bested Lee as well?
If they never competed, then its sound to say that nobody bested anybody. But you avoid that.
If they sparred and one is inclined to tally up sparring sessions as "bestings" (which is weird to me, but I can deal with it for the sake of argument) then it is sound to say that multiple guys "bested" each other incessantly, because all these guys knew how to train realistically. But you avoid that.
But imagining that all training sessions with Bruce Lee were exclusively one-sided beat downs by Bruce, no matter what he was learning or whom he was training withthat's
not
what you avoid. That's what you promote, and it makes Bruce appreciation appear to be delusional.
but he cant punch and hes too stiff. These karate champs certainly didn't that's for sure.
No, even if Chuck could not punch well (which is dubious) that has no impact on the punches of
all
these other karate champs. Nobody has ever furthered a reasonable argument that these guys couldn't punch, including Bruce Lee himself.
Or IF Bruce really did decide HE could punch but Chuck and all these karate guys could not, then Bruce was delusional. So I oppose that picture you paint of Bruce Lee, too.
So, why do you? You want to demean the reputations of others thinking it enhance5b4s Bruce Lee's. But it does not accomplish what you think it does.
He was there,
No he wasn't. I've never heard
anyone
say Kelly was there when Lee sparred with Mullins (which you imagined; Mullins himself disputes you) or trained with Joe Lewis or learned judo from Gene LeBell or
anything like that.
Nonsense.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
d
er. -
victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 26, 2015 12:16 PM)
Yes Kelly was there. He heard about the tails and anecdotes from many tournament players. But Jim Kelly is a gentleman. He wont name names and when champs told Kelly Lee was untouchable. It stays with Jim Kelly, he wont reveal names. Now that is a gentleman and man of honour.
It wouldn't surprise me if Mullins, Delgado and Norris told Jim that they couldn't touch Lee. But again Jim is a gent. Shame Jon Benn isn't a gentleman when revealing Norris told him nobody could beat Bruce lee, let alone himself.
It didn't occur to Benn, that Norris might not want the whole world to know he said that. Norris knows his fans don't want to hear that.