Who's Name's Will Jim Kelly Not Disclose?
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victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 26, 2015 08:19 AM)
Not honest to count only the time Lee bested others?
So Jim Kelly is a dishonest man as he is commenting on the times he knows Lee bested champions? Jim kelly needs his wrist slapped for not talking about things he and most likely nobody on earth knows about ie besting Lee? SMH
Theres enough people who intentionlly and knowingly talk utter rubbish about Lee online, almost make a living out of it - yet we have an individual on this thread and board trying to lay a guilt trip on people who give Lee credit and choose not to say negative things about him? The audacity literally astounds me and leaves me speechless.
Someone is obviously trying to play the moral high ground game, but doing a poor job of it. As i say, some things dont change around here. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 26, 2015 09:39 AM)
Not honest to count only the time Lee bested others?
It wouldn't be honest, if that's not what occurred.
o Jim Kelly is a dishonest man as he is commenting on the times he knows Lee bested champions?
No.
You're
a dishonest man to conclude that Lee bested others that nobody says he did, or to say that only it was only one-sided, when nobody says that either.
You're the one who literally concealed stuff like Mullins' statement that he's not aware of Lee fighting let alone besting any of these folks. In order to argue that Mullins thinks Lee bested these folks, including himself.
This implies that you are saying that Mullins would know from sparring who defeated whom. Yet in the very same article you're told stuff like Mullins knows that Chuck was the smartest fighter. To be intellectually honest, not only would you not be using the concealment/cherry picking tacticsbut you'd likely be inclined towards deducing that Mullins has confirmed that Chuck is a smarter fighter than Bruce. Yet you don't bother with complete academics.
It might not be the truthbut there's still an intellectually honest way to read the materialand you're eschewing even that.
yet we have an individual on this thread and board trying to lay a guilt trip on people who give Lee credit and choose not to say negative things about him?
You
should
feel guilty for saying that Bruce Lee defeated folks like Skipper Mullins, when all signs point to no.
You're the rubbish that tarnishes Bruce Lee's fandom as beep Don't be that.
There are many ways to appreciate Bruce Lee without manufacturing defeats of specific others, baselessly. You're not even aware that your "fandom" is contingent upon irrational demeaningness to others.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
d
er. -
victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 26, 2015 11:26 AM)
Bruce lee bested many champions and that is obviously a sensitive issue for his critics. The guys Lee bested outside of competion shouldn't make critics insecure but they obviously are very insecure. They cant take comfort about boasting about their idols trophies in their cabinet alone, that is not enough for them.
Bruce lee critics don't mind saying Lee bested people, so long as we assume they bested Lee as well? Well, im sorry I cant do that on the basis someone claims they landed a spinning hook kick once. Bruce lee said Norris had nice fancy kicks, but he cant punch and hes too stiff. These karate champs certainly didn't that's for sure. Jon Benn said Norris told him that nobody could beat Bruce lee and that he would be no match for Lee. Ive heard through the grapevine that Norris denied saying that. Norris might have some credibility to me and others if he said I never said that to Jon Benn. But he would have to mention that name Jon Benn. That way Jon Benn could reply back in actual fact you did say it. Which Norris did. But Jon might feel guilty in fact for revealing private conversations. Of course Norris would have loved Jon to have kept that private. Norris knows he has many fans and they don't want to hear Norris admit anything. I give credit to Norris for that though, he is responsible and obviously cares very much for his fans.
Jim Kelly has no problem acknowledging that he felt Lee was a level above anyone he had encountered. Jim Kelly should know, he fought Benny Urquidez to a draw afterall. So im not going to feel guilty reiterating what he implies. He was there, he knows more than me, people can learn lot from him and his feedback he got from people who were also there. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 26, 2015 12:04 PM)
Bruce lee bested many champions and that is obviously a sensitive issue for his critics.
All
these guys bested many champions.
Oops, you don't want that acknowledged.
Bruce lee critics don't mind saying Lee bested people, so long as we assume they bested Lee as well?
If they never competed, then its sound to say that nobody bested anybody. But you avoid that.
If they sparred and one is inclined to tally up sparring sessions as "bestings" (which is weird to me, but I can deal with it for the sake of argument) then it is sound to say that multiple guys "bested" each other incessantly, because all these guys knew how to train realistically. But you avoid that.
But imagining that all training sessions with Bruce Lee were exclusively one-sided beat downs by Bruce, no matter what he was learning or whom he was training withthat's
not
what you avoid. That's what you promote, and it makes Bruce appreciation appear to be delusional.
but he cant punch and hes too stiff. These karate champs certainly didn't that's for sure.
No, even if Chuck could not punch well (which is dubious) that has no impact on the punches of
all
these other karate champs. Nobody has ever furthered a reasonable argument that these guys couldn't punch, including Bruce Lee himself.
Or IF Bruce really did decide HE could punch but Chuck and all these karate guys could not, then Bruce was delusional. So I oppose that picture you paint of Bruce Lee, too.
So, why do you? You want to demean the reputations of others thinking it enhance5b4s Bruce Lee's. But it does not accomplish what you think it does.
He was there,
No he wasn't. I've never heard
anyone
say Kelly was there when Lee sparred with Mullins (which you imagined; Mullins himself disputes you) or trained with Joe Lewis or learned judo from Gene LeBell or
anything like that.
Nonsense.
Now, this is a signature gun, and that is an optical palm rea
d
er. -
victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 26, 2015 12:16 PM)
Yes Kelly was there. He heard about the tails and anecdotes from many tournament players. But Jim Kelly is a gentleman. He wont name names and when champs told Kelly Lee was untouchable. It stays with Jim Kelly, he wont reveal names. Now that is a gentleman and man of honour.
It wouldn't surprise me if Mullins, Delgado and Norris told Jim that they couldn't touch Lee. But again Jim is a gent. Shame Jon Benn isn't a gentleman when revealing Norris told him nobody could beat Bruce lee, let alone himself.
It didn't occur to Benn, that Norris might not want the whole world to know he said that. Norris knows his fans don't want to hear that. -
victorsuk — 10 years ago(May 26, 2015 03:27 PM)
Im sure Jim Kelly with his enquiring mind, wanted to know what happened when Bob Wall sparred with Bruce lee if Jim wasn't witness to it on the ETD, although there are photos of him looking on, whilst Bob and Bruce are either choreographing fight scenes or sparring.
Im sure Bob Wall would have told Jim Kelly that Lee was untouchable. Im sure if Bob Wall had of touched Lee he might be telling us how tough Lees chin was. Im certain Jim Kelly would also like to have known if Bob Wall sparred with Lee not on the set of ETD also, as Bob and Lee had known each other for years and years. But Jim wont name names. Im sure Peter Archer would have discussed with Jim as well seeing Bruce lee make Bob look rather sluggish and slow.
Either way, Jim Kelly was there and is being as honest and truthful as he can be with the feedback he has got. -
pking-2 — 10 years ago(May 22, 2015 01:12 PM)
A landed kick or punch can cause great psychological damage to the person getting hit. Especially if this happens time and time again.
This seems likely contrary to what we know/say about Bruce (and any of these other guys, for that matter)that they chose to and liked to spar a lot.
I'm projecting what I know of the folks I've seen for decades who sparred and liked to spar, with no particular psychological damage evident (to me). So, I assume these guys were also not particularly psychologically damaged nor damaging by sparring. Why do you say otherwise? (open mind, here. Trying to be fair and transparent about why I can't wrap my brain around this) Perhaps I'm ignorant to how damaged/damaging sparring has always been, likely due to being brain and psychologically damaged from it
When Delgado said he was completely baffled and awestruck by Lee when they fought, obviously he couldn't deal with the challenges that sparring with Bruce Lee had presented. Therefore Delgado's skill was inferior. The same can be said regarding Lieb, Burleson, Kelly and Wall among others. SOMETHING in their sparring matches convinced them they were no match for Bruce Lee.
Perhaps, but in my experience its
never
so binary and sweeping.
I've2000 been baffled and impressed by many opponents regarding many skills many times. And had zero ego or psychological concerns about saying so. Yet, still I was able to "best" them in a variety of ways, including in full blown competition, at times. So, its just not an either/or situation, realistically. It seems to logically equate to a fallacy, something like "if you struggle against someone or praise them, that means you were inferior, and also defeated privately by them" and that seems nonsensical. I'm sure, of course, it happens. But I'm also sure that other times such words are not proof of a competition, let alone proof that either side knows what would occur in a hypothetical competition that never occurs.
you have to remember that Lee was there in the capacity of instructor for the most part, so it is to be expected if it was one sided.
I'm not even sure about the "for the most part" thing. Yes, he was an instructor to many, for the most part. It's not clear to me that he was instructor to all of these guys. And I am willing to assert he was never an instructor (of note) in any form of grappling, which he did studywhich means in at least that area of martial arts, he was learning grappling by being a student or perhaps "seeking out training while avoiding the term 'student'", for the most part. Or, if we use the mindset/definitions of your premiseshe was likely being "bested" when grappling, at least. Or else he never learned how to grapple, since I believe that NOBODY in the history of grappling has become an effective grappler until after being grappled thousands of times and ways.
In other wordsI cannot imagine that Bruce developed submission skill unless he tapped too many times to count along the way. Or boxing skill unless he "lost" too many rounds to count, along the way.
This is because there's no such thing in my experience as a grappler or boxer who has ever developed high level skill without such occurrences. And it pops my brain to presume that Bruce Lee was the first and onlybecause we both know that approaches the "magic Bruce Lee" nonsense that I think we both have an aversion towards.
However, we are talking about an elite group of fighters who are used to winning, and have tremendous egos. It's in their nature to be highly competitive.
Hmmm. Maybe.
It may not sound like itbut I'm honestly asserting/proposing a view of Bruce Lee that is better than one that is so ego-driven competitive that he did not allow himself to do things in training that would expose his areas in need of improvement.
RatherI hope that he did the opposite. To me, at least, training against those who have skills that you need to work on means Bruce conquered his ego in the name of well-rounded training and a stronger resultant skillset.
Butit implies that to be accurate, at best we must predict that IF Bruce "bested" his training partners, sure, okay. And, he was "bested" by training partners too. And nobody worried about talking about it for the same reason that every boxer wrestler I've known never worries about these practice "bestings." They are just part of training, in my experience.
I just don't think its as worrisome to the psyche as I think you do.
What you have described here is more in line with drills, than free sparring.
No, I don't mean drilling, sorry for not being clear.
Resistance full-speed, etc but focused on expanding one's technique set by choosing the technique one wants to develop. NOT "free" at all since you don't choose the stuff you have that you know you can use to dominate the other guy. Rather you choose the stuff you want to develop.
But its totally
not
drilling whatsoever (in my parlance, at leastdrilling is broken down, not dynamic, not fully resisted, to literally lear -
HarpoSpoke — 10 years ago(June 10, 2015 12:30 PM)
As I said many times here, I was lucky enough to be able to discuss Bruce Lee with world Karate champion John Worley (taught by close personal friend of Lee's, Jhoon Rhee) about six months after seeing ETD when it was released here. I knew I wanted to learn more about Bruce Lee after seeing the f1354ilm, but then you can't always believe what you seen on the screen. What sealed the deal for me was talking with Worley. When I had asked him if he thought Bruce could have been a world champion fighter, he told me "It's a good thing Bruce Lee didn't compete. It would have been futile for his opponents regardless of their size." I was extremely impressed by this statement, knowing that Worley was a world champion himself, and was so impressed with Bruce Lee!
I knew I had to not only learn more about him as a human being, but also study his training methods.
As far as stories of Lee besting other world champions?
Aside from Jim Kelly stating in the interview that started this thread, that he knew who Bruce Lee sparred with, and that they wont tell how good Lee was, there must have been some MIGHTY bruised egos!
Here is an excerpt from the book Bruce Lee: The Incomparable Fighter.
Blackbelt Magazine publisher Mito Uyehara is the one narrating the story
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z4qHatHRJlsC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=bruce+lee+champions&source=bl&ots=VZlnO9LcjQ&sig=PTlr9lf9fvywTARNEsI3_7WSKCg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FddXVeGAMcPutQXs2IGgBg&ved=0CGQQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q=bruce lee champions&f=false
His anecdotes are completely in line with Kelly and all of the other fighters who's ego's didn't stop them from relating just how good Bruce Lee really was. There truly is a code of silence among some of these fighters.
I'm getting a definite sense that Chuck Norris is one of the guys Kelly was talking about. That book excerpt falls in line with what that reporter witnessed at a "training session" with Lee, Norris, and Lewis. The reporter chuckled at how Lee was treating the champs like children.
And like that book said, they've all got egos too. Lee always struck me a bit like Mozart. Very self confident and aware of his greatness.but perhaps not always tactful in expressing that self confidence. That is going to rub some people the wrong way.
As for the idea that private training sessions cannot result in anyone "besting" anyone.well that's an odd thing to say. Any kind of training between any two athletes results in that being established. Play a "friendly" game of basketball practice with your friends and you still are going to know who is superior. Sparring is inherently about testing your skill against another person. Of course both would know who "bested" who. There is no mystery there. -
victorsuk — 10 years ago(September 28, 2015 03:31 PM)
It's called humbleness<<
Is their even any evidence he thought this? All ive heard is that someone has implied Lee thought this. I can give you testimonies of people saying bruce lee thought he could beat anyone as well. -
Discobiscuit88 — 9 years ago(June 16, 2016 11:13 AM)
Beating someone in an "official" fight doesn't make one better than another. Matt Serra was not better than GSP. Buster Douglas was not better than Tyson. Joe Frazier was not better than Ali.
It doesn't matter whether you don't personally think Bruce Lee's unofficial credits and legacy are legit. It doesn't matter that you personally need video and photograhic evidence to legitimize the claims of all the people who knew and interacted with Bruce Lee in his lifetime. It doesn't matter that you don't count his list of pupils as proof towards his skill and talent. It basically doesn't matter what you do or don't think of Bruce Lee, because the fact will always remain that he was one of the greatest martial artists of all time with or without enough video footage to obtain your blessing. -
wantutosigh — 9 years ago(September 15, 2016 03:22 PM)
Here are my thoughts. I think there are a lot of friends of Bruce Lee who trained with him who are inclined to keep his legend alive. I think they have a ton of respect for him and thought he was a terrific martial artist and they are inclined to mostly talk of his prowess and say positive things.
To act like he has never been "bested" himself in all of these friendly sparring and training sessions is silly. Not to mention, being great in sparring sessions doesn't necessarily equal being a great fighter.
Being a true martial artist like Bruce Lee was, he not only trained with all these fighters and martial artists as a teacher but he was also training with them to learn. That's what being a complete martial artist is all about, learning as much as you can.
Chuck Norris said himself when he first met Bruce Lee he didn't believe in kicks above the waste. But Norris's philosophy was if the kick is there then you should go for it. Not long after they trained together Bruce Lee started incorporating more head kicks into his art.
And you have to know when Lee trained with Gene Lebell and they worked on grappling, Lee must have gotten tossed around and chocked out tons of times. There is no shame in this. That's how you learn. You have to go through these steps to get better. Bruce Lee was only 32 when he died, trust me, he still had plenty left to learn as a martial artist.
So the mentioning of him "besting champions" is most likely them speaking to moments in training/sparring where he got the upper hand. I'm sure his partners had plenty of moments where they "bested" Lee as well. That's just logic.
RIP Bob Probert -
victorsuk — 9 years ago(October 13, 2016 04:07 PM)
I think anyone would have serious doubts about champs besting Lee in sparring or we'd sure know about it. Lee took sparring seriously and didn't mess about. I heard he was really rough and tough in sparring and onlookers would sometimes tell him to take it easier on opponents.
These sparring sessions were basically opportunities to find out you wasn't at lees level. Lee would hurt these champs in sparring, Lee didn't mess about. So the champs would have tried hurt Bruce in return. From my understanding they couldn't do much too bruce. I'm sure when Lee hit them they were thinking I'm a champion this shouldn't be happening. They would have really tried take Lee out, and Lee wouldn't have had it any other way as he was into realism and what Lee was doing was a real wake up call to them
Lee not being a champion in a sport would have something to prove to these champs he encountered. It woiukd be important to Bruce that they knew he was better. That he had much to offer even if he didn't have trophies.
If they bested Lee in sparring then I wouldn't know what all the fuss about Bruce would be? But nobody bested Lee in sparring. He was awesome by all accounts. Because he was awesome people are intrigued as to how he'd do in competion, thinking he would do extremely well of course -
WandererFromYs — 9 years ago(January 31, 2017 11:34 AM)
I'm not even sure why people would question this. In the mid 90's UFC came along and showed the entire world just how incomplete all the Martial arts were. The one guy that knew this, and had been saying it over 20 years prior was Bruce Lee. It seems pretty obvious that the guy that trains to actually fight would be able to beat the best point fighters of that era. Those guys were competing within a strict set of boundries, while Bruce was trying to break the mold a bit more.
I think people really take offense to him being this untouchable godlike fighter, and he really wasn't, he was way ahead of his time.