It's been over ten years, and they still can't beat The Animated Series
-
Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Marvel/DC
nirvana_state_of_mind — 17 years ago(July 16, 2008 11:16 PM)
I don't have much to add to the title. This new movie just didn't have any stories to compare to the quality of the episodes in the Animated Series in the 90's. Mark Hamill's Joker was fantastic, as well as the Mr. Freeze and Two Face episodes which immediately come to mind. They all told a complete story that wasn't disjointed, was dark/serious, and still had really good animation. This new one ranges from poorer animation to superior animation, but none of the stories come close to the perfection of that Animated Series, and that's why I was heavily disappointed.
-
ironmaiden720 — 17 years ago(July 17, 2008 07:36 PM)
B:TAS was a one in a lifetime thing. Just look at their PERFECT cast. Need I say more? Everything and everyone came into place at exactly the right time.. it was even a revolution in animation
I have spoken. -
Otaku-sempai — 17 years ago(July 18, 2008 11:39 AM)
It's apples and oranges. Sorry, but because
Gotham Knight
employed such a large number of different directors, character designers and animation studios there is no way that everyone is going to like every single segment. Even a couple of the segments produced at the same studio "In Darkness Dwells" and "Deadshot," both produced by Madhouse) had very different styles. I'm not sure which segments you consider "fruity" (although I could probably guess) but that certainly doesn't accurately describe all of them by a longshot.
"I'm willing to put my life on the line to do what I have to. But it has to be mine, no one else's." -
Batman: Gotham Knight -
comicstu — 17 years ago(July 18, 2008 02:40 PM)
People love pointing out the great B:TAS episodes and completely overlook the horrible ones that popped up surprisingly often. For every 'Heart of Ice', there were a good handful of 'I've Got Batman in My Basement''s and 'The Terrible Trio's, for every 'Two-Face', you had your 'Cat Scratch Fever's and 'The Last Laugh''s.
I'd take the best of B:TAS over Gotham Knight any day, but Gotham Knight is still far more consistent. -
nirvana_state_of_mind — 17 years ago(July 18, 2008 04:55 PM)
I actually just watched Cat Scratch Fever, I liked it a lot. I admit that there will be weak episodes, most tv series have them. But for a movie that had a lot more time available to create something really amazing just fell way short in some of the segments. I actually really liked Return of the Joker, which was based on the lackluster Batman Beyond series.
-
amp85 — 17 years ago(July 18, 2008 03:45 PM)
Well, these were all done by different directors and were a fraction of the time an episode got.
To expect random director's to come in and make mind-blowing Batman stories in 10 minutes that are as good and deep as some of the better Animated Series episodes, is simply unrealistic, wishful thinking.
This film is merely a collection of short films about Batman. And Short films are often times about a situation or to show a characteristic of someone, rather than to have a full on plot with justification for each character's actions.
I think this film is merely meant to be enjoyed by seeing Batman in various new art styles, while it shines some light on his characteristics. Of course, this isn't necessarily thrown in your face. -
amp85 — 17 years ago(July 18, 2008 04:11 PM)
Additionally, these shorts are supposed to tie into the Batman Begins/The Dark Knight timeline not TAS's timeline.
Therefore, introducing new foes or even elaborating on previously used villains would hinder the movie timeline. -
fdpedro — 17 years ago(July 21, 2008 08:19 PM)
I disagree with what comictsu said. Sure there were some bad episodes in B:TAS (Batman in My Basement, The Underdwellers, The Terrible Trio, and undeneath all of them Moon of the Wolf) but the good episodes outnumber the bad ones by MANY. You made it sound as if 1/2 of the shows were bad.
I like Cat Scratch Fever a lot, especially the climax by the frozen lake. Never understood why so many fans give it a hard time. Maybe they don't like cats. Plus, most of the worst shows were done early in the first season, when the show was still trying to find itself.
Even the bad episodes have one or two good moments in them. The Terrible Trio for example has a good climax. -
comicstu — 17 years ago(July 22, 2008 04:22 PM)
'Cat Scratch Fever' has more flaws that one can count: hideous animation, manipulative story-telling, one-sided social commentary that exploits the audience's emotions, badly written dialogue, terrible character designs, etc. I wrote a review for it on my blog:
http://cstusnews.blogspot.com/2008/06/btas-reviews-cat-scratch-fever.h tml
And yeah, half the episodes were below average, while half were above average. -
fdpedro — 17 years ago(July 23, 2008 07:35 PM)
Animation has never been the strongest thing behind B:TAS. Sure some episodes have brilliant animationm such as On Leather Wings, Heart of Ice, and Beware the Grey Ghost. Others don't. But I still like Cat Scratch Fever. Never minded Selina Kyle as an animal activist like most do. I love Adriane Barbeau's voice and I like the episode: The snowy setting, the climax, the fight with the dog at the end etc I find it at least better than Catwoman's debut tale.
Couldn't disagree more about your view that 50% of the show was below average. The only episodes I would consider below average from the original series would be Terrible Trio, Moon of the Wolf (ugh!), The Underdwellers, I've Got Batman in My Basement, The Last Laugh, Be a Clown, The Mechanic, and um I think that's it. That's not even 10% is it? Everything else was at least above average, IMO.
Actually, I read your entire blog, and while I agree with all of your positive reviews, you bring down a lot of episodes I really, really like (I Am the Night, Paging the Crime Doctor, Zatanna, The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy, etc). You also seem to dislike all the episodes that same any sort of environmental or anti-corporation message behind it. It was the 90s after all.
-
comicstu — 17 years ago(July 23, 2008 08:13 PM)
Yeah, I do seem to not like those anti-corporation messages or whatever, but that's mainly because they're done so poorly, I guess. I'm pretty sure there are a few more down the road with similar themes that I really enjoy. 'Feat of Clay' was one of them.
But yeah, thanks for reading it even if you disagree with a lot of it; must have been a lot of reading.
You also have to know that I've been a B:TAS fan since I was six years old and it is forever one of my most beloved series, but sometime objectivity has to get in the way of nostalgia for me. -
fdpedro — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 12:49 PM)
Really? I thought it was a SEVERE step down, from the horrible redesigns (except Scarecrow), to the reduced running time, to the absurd ammount of unnecessary action sequences that add nothing to the episode, and of course to the complete lack of non-supervillain episodes which were some of my favorites of the original series (I Am The Night, POV, Paging the Crime Doctor, etc). It had some good episodes, but no excellent episodes, at least none that compare to the best of B:TAS.
However, I'd rather watch that than The Batman, or Batman Beyond. -
comicstu — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 01:52 PM)
Well I for one enjoyed the redesigns, and I felt the animation was a HUGE step up from the original series. There were a lot more episodes animated by good studios. I know what you mean about the non-suervillain episodes, but to be honest I found a lot of those in B:TAS a bit overrated (although there are a few I LOVE, like 'A Bullet For Bullock' and 'Beware the Gray Ghost').
Still, I thought episodes like 'Growing Pains' and 'Over the Edge' are easily comparable to the best of B:TAS, and there were plenty of other great episodes like 'Never Fear' and 'Legends of the Dark Knight', and there were no episodes as bad as the worst of B:TAS.
And for the record, I really like 'Batman Beyond' too. -
fdpedro — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 06:16 PM)
I agree the animation was more consistant, but I far prefer the animation from the original series, even at its worst, mainly because of my distaste for the redesigns. Batman looks so stiff and ugly in TNBA as if he was drawn with a ruler, Robin is impossible to take seriously, the Joker looks like an Animaniac, and don't get me started on the women (Catwoman and Poison Ivy ugh).
I liked how the original series took its time and the characters moved slowly (For example, in Trial, we see Bruce Wayne grab a chair and sit on it during a restaurant scene). In TNBA, everything moves so fast and like I said, the increase in action sequences and violence took precious story telling time away.
Growing Pains is good bur I can never rate it next to the best of B:TAS due to my extreme dislike of the Tim Drake/Robin design.
Over the Edge is very overrated. It's a good episode, but the terrible "it's all a dream" ending brings it down so hard. Perchance to Dream and For the Man Who Had Everything (JLU) are far superior similar episodes.
Never Fear perhaps the very best episode of TNBA. Very good and The Scarecrow is excellent, sadly there's the Robin redesign again.
Mad Love would have been fantastic in BTAS, sadly I have to endure the Jopker redesign from TNBA.
Legends of the Dark Knight was sooooo good and had potential to be worthy of being a B:TAS episode, sadly the lame Firefly/Batman confrontation at the end spoiled it. Why couldn't they do a Bob Kane (or a Neil Adams) segment instead and for once not have us look at the horrible new Batman design?
I think a good example of everything that is wrong with TNBA is in Mean Seasons. Great potential, great villain (an improvement from her comic book character Calendar Man). It would have been a fantastic BTAS episode but hey its TNBA. Let's give Calendar Girl muscular men with tights as her henchmen (reminds me of Mr. Freeze and His Freezettes), let's add these extreme fast action sequences that add nothing to the narrative such as a battle with a T-Rex robot, and let's have Batman working with a partner even knowing this could have perfectly been a solo mission.
And I really disagree on no worse episodes than the worst of B:TAS I'd much rather watch Moon of the Wolf than Love is a Croc, Torch Song (poor Firefly), or Critters.
Batman Beyond (except for Meltdown and Out of the Past) is the only Timm/Dini show I just plain don't like. I find it sick as it completely destroyed everything I love about the Batman universe. But that's a different story. -
comicstu — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 07:00 PM)
Well, I personally love a lot of the redesigns and they in no way detract from the realism of the series for me. I have no problem with the Robin redesign and I think it's a lot easier to take Batman and Bruce Wayne seriously in their new looks: Batman looks more intimidating and Bruce Wayne looks more sophisticated.
The animation in 'Growing Pains' and 'Over the Edge' is probably better than the animation in any B:TAS episode, and the 'it's only a dream ending' I felt was necessary, but it also didn't feel like a copout in that we got to see Barbara reconcile everything with her father at the end of the episode.
I agree about the Joker redesign, but I didn't mind it in some of the better episodes.
I think that 'Legends of the Dark Knight' needed the third segment with the regular Batman because it was supposed to show that the Batman of the current series is an amalgamation of the different Batman interpretations that have come before. I thought it worked perfectly.
And I'd much rather watch 'Love is a Croc', 'Torch Song', and even 'Critters' than 'Moon of the Wolf', 'Cat Scratch Fever', or 'I've Got Batman in My Basement'.
I really like 'Batman Beyond'. It did a great job of showing the evolution of Bruce Wayne, featured some great action scenes, had beautiful background art, and was overall a very solid series. -
frostorm — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 09:32 PM)
I agree with you, comicstu. I prefer the redesigns of TNBA myself where Bruce Wayne looks more the part of a sophisticated billionaire than he ever did in BTAS and the Robin design wasn't a problem I guess because I'm a Tim Drake fan anyway.
Love Is A Croc & The Demon Within had impressive animation to me. Some of the earlier eps from BTAS are pretty harsh to watch if not for the Fleischer-esque lighting. No stretch a loss to view but the revamps seemed to be warranted & are an improvement. I loved them right away when they aired on tv way back.
Still both segments combined are a great series.
"I can't believe that Bryce prefers Van Patten's card to mine" -
fdpedro — 17 years ago(July 24, 2008 09:54 PM)
Growing Pains and Over the Edge might have excellent animation, but its wonderful animation on something that I find ugly. I'd much rather watch Beware the Grey Ghost or Heart of Ice, which I find far better achievements artistically. The cinematic aspect of BTAS (mostly the film noir lightening) was lost on TNBA.
I understand what they were trying to do with the "regular" Batman segment in Legends of the Dark Knight, but the first two segments are so awesome and all the "regular" Batman does is fight Firefly in an abandoned movie theater? The commentary track itself states this main flaw (Timm suggests they should have dione a Neil Adams segment, but it would have been too hard to animate).
The it's only a dream ending did feel like a major cop-out to me, especially considering Barbara wasn't even active in her own dream.
I am a Tim Drake fan too (my favorite Robin) so I was even more disappointed at his design when I first saw it. Actually, I couldn't believe my eyes when I first saw the redesigns of TNBA. When the first episode popped up I thought it was some sort of joke. The Bruce Wayne redesign itself didn't work for me at all. The new suit is fine (I agree, more sophisticated) but the new face they gave him was so bland, not to mention he looks way too young.