Forced to become Jewish?
-
Catdubh — 18 years ago(September 27, 2007 10:47 PM)
whether it were possible that Kate was coerced into conversion. It's a legitimate question.
Fair enough. You're right, it is a legitimate question, with one exception, I would have formed the question with using the verb "Force" (forced). I see your point, I think what you said about being "Coerced" into converting, maybe a valid query. I am a big fan of Steven's and I'd like to think that he didn't engage in coercing anyone into an5b4ything. I am also old enough and wise enough to know even the nicest people are capable of "under-handed" behavior. We are all human, and humans do odd things when we really want our way (not necessarily wrong). Also, if she was coerced, perhaps from where Steven sat, it did not appear to be coercion, at all. A lot of it depends on interpretation and perspective.
What, just for once in your life can't you be serious? -
repete66211 — 18 years ago(September 28, 2007 06:26 AM)
Cat,
I agree with you here. I asked the question quite a while ago, shortly after a friend of mine
had
been coerced into converting to Judaism by a family that was pr111cactically secular. She was the third woman I know whom that happened to and I was a bit unhappy with the whole idea of converting in order to be married. (That goes with
any
religion.) The implicit statement seems to be that the converter's cultural or religious background is inferior. -
Catdubh — 18 years ago(September 28, 2007 07:44 AM)
The implicit statement seems to be that the converter's cultural or religious background is inferior.
True but if the one asking to convert were so attached to and identified with a said faith (and perhaps culture) then the issue would be mute. People that feel strongly about their faith do not typically get seriously involved with people outside of their own faith, who may be equally as attached to their own but different faith. I am not saying it doesn't happen but it is a recipe for a mess. Also, people who do strongly identify with their faith or are perhaps semi-religious (for lack of a better definition - I don't have one. LOL), may become involved with people who really are luke warm about their faith or don't identify with a particular faith, who may be willing to explore the possibilities of their significant other's (boyfriend's/girlfriend's) faith, as a prospective convert. (Gosh, I hope I am making sense!)
The requirement of conversion to one another's faith, when two people wish to marry is very common amongst many faiths. Realize too, it isn't the mate of the prospective convert who is necessarily requiring the conversion; it is the requirement of the religious institution of which their mate is a member.
I think your point touches something much deeper than the notion of religious conversion and whether it is simply a choice. I think your friend and acquaintances might have found themselves in what sounds like heart-wrenching predicaments. It sounds as if they may have fallen in love, become so involved in their respective relationships that when it came time to "will you marry me", there were strings attached. The strings may have been, "will you marry me and convert to my faith for me". It also sounds like these women were not prepared for the second part of the proposal, "will you5b4 convert to my faith for me". That's tough because that isn't what a lot of people expect to be asked when dating outside of their faith, if the differences didnt arise while they were dating. The issue could have been dealt with (the issue of asking someone to convert) before getting to "will you marry me". That is a lot easier to say than to do! When people are in love, some issues, which really are important, are reduced and minimized when one is not forced to face the issues. We like to think, "these things will not matter or work themselves out".
I would be curious to know what you heard or have read about Kate and Steven's courtship, which led up to her converting to Judaism. As you said, you had information which backs your thoughts that Kate was "coerced" (not forced, LOL!) into converting.
What, just for once in your life can't you be serious? -
repete66211 — 18 years ago(September 28, 2007 08:09 AM)
You're correct when you say that when a certain ceremony is selected it is the requirement of that particular religion that requires the bride and groom to be of said religion, and not necessarily that of the future spouse or his/her family. You're also correct when you say that when people of strong faith date the usually address the subject of conversion. However, this isn't a perfect world, so many times people do butt heads over issues like this. In the situation I mentioned earlier, the groom honestly didn't care. It was the groom's family that insisted on the conversion.
I have not read of Kate and Steve's courtship. I do not know the events that led to her conversion. I don't believe I ever said I have information supporting the idea that Kate was coereced into converting. I'm not sure where you got that. I have been merely speculating in that direction. I think what I was really doing was asking what everyone else thinks about her conversion as well as conversions in general. -
Raskel — 18 years ago(September 28, 2007 11:28 AM)
When you read this you might get some answers:
http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?ParentId=m11s19s158&SecId=158&AId=46401&ATypeId=1
Me? I'm the eternal optimist. The glass is always half full on this end -
Catdubh — 18 years ago(September 28, 2007 02:12 PM)
Great article! I knew Steven had it rough, and felt out of place growing up in California and Arizona because of his heritage. I had suspected the experience(s) from his youth left some bruises. From the interview, it sounds as though the marks left were far wor5b4se than bruises; apparently, there were some deep wounds that have left scars. It appears that his painful experiences have obviously contributed to the strong re-connection he has appears to have made to his roots and faith.
Steven said one of the contributing factors (not the main one) that helped him re-connect with Judaism was the filming of Schindlers List. That is interesting; Steven Hill (of Law and Order) had a similar experience, relatively early in his career. In the 1960s, while playing Sigmund Freud, in the play "A Far Country" there was a scene in which a patient screamed at Freud, "You are a Jew!". The experience caused Hill to re-connect with his faith and re-evaluate his lifestyle. He has been adhering to his Jewish faith since, and practicing within the complete Orthodox laws of Judaism.
What, just for once in your life can't you be serious? -
repete66211 — 18 years ago(September 28, 2007 02:29 PM)
http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?ParentId=m11s19s158&SecId=158&A Id=46401&ATypeId=1
That is an interesting interview. Funny what he says about his son with Amy Irving: "I simply would have compelled Max to be barmitzvahed." -
Catdubh — 18 years ago(September 28, 2007 01:20 PM)
have not read of Kate and Steve's courtship. I do not know the events that led to her conversion. I don't believe I ever said I have information supporting the idea that Kate was coereced into converting. I'm not sure where you got that.
from the following post, you made a day ago.
was wondering out loudin perhaps a provocative waywhether it were possible that Kate was coerced into conversion. It's a legitimate question.
I have plenty of anecdotal evidence to support my suspicion.
I am a bit confused. From your most recent reply, can I assume the
Anecdotal
evidence you possess, has nothing to do with Kate?
My bad.
What, just for once in your life can't you be serious? -
repete66211 — 18 years ago(September 28, 2007 02:13 PM)
Ah, you are right. I did say that, but I was speaking not of Kate but of my own personal experiences. (I typed that response on my phone.) I will correct my previous post. Thanks for pointing that out.
-
ContinentalOp — 14 years ago(June 19, 2011 05:32 AM)
''and would have married someone of her own FAITH!''
Yeah, rightI do not think she purposely set out to marry a non-Anglican. Love or lust just happens, regardless of religion. For all you know, deep down she might want her husband to be Anglican but still loves him enough to be with him.
If you are sick of the ''I love Jesus 100% signature'', copy and paste this into your profile! -
ContinentalOp — 14 years ago(June 19, 2011 05:30 AM)
''That is why Steven may have wanted Kate to convert. So what is wrong with wanting your children to be raised in your own faith?''
That is not the issue here, though. Wanting is different to pressuring. I am not saying that Spielberg pressured Capshaw, or that he family did, but it is common especially with certain Jews who believe in a ridiculous idea of a ''Jewish race'' (which curiously can only be passed down via women in their belief). Jews in Europe are often Slavic and Turkic. They might have some real Semitic ancestry, but think about how little they would have by this point in time. The idea that ''Jewish'' is racial is dangerous and silly. People like Spielberg are no more racially Jewish than an English man is racially Christian. Also, mothers should not need to convert to any religion for children to be raised in it.
If you are sick of the ''I love Jesus 100% signature'', copy and paste this into your profile! -
Satisfaction_Guaranteed — 16 years ago(July 05, 2009 11:02 AM)
I still don't understand why the mother is required to be jewish for a child to be jewish. I thought if a person chooses to believe in some religion or philosophy they are free to do so of their own free will.
So for example if I choose to convert to judaism, but my mother is not jewish, that means I can't be jewish? But if that's not the case, and one can be jewish without having a jewish mother, and then convert later on in life, then the jewish mother rule doesn't make sense, idk.
"evil will always triumph because good is dumb." -
A_New_Hope — 14 years ago(June 19, 2011 01:04 AM)
Jews and Scientology suck balls! Stupid religions and very harmful. Oh hey Ive got this extra bit of skin, don't worry we'll cut the thing off. Yay now it looks like a mushroom! Why the hell do they circumcise? where is it that god doesn't have a foreskin? God made us in his image so why not lets just lob off part of our body
Again Jews suck balls -
ContinentalOp — 14 years ago(June 19, 2011 05:41 AM)
''I still don't understand why the mother is required to be jewish for a child to be jewish.''
It is just old school racism that is protected, rather than challenged, by racists and bigots who want to look non-racist by hypocritically supporting any element of Jewish intolerance. It is because Judaism and Christian have a lot of immoral messages in their ''law codes'' and dogma, which luckily many younger Jew16d0s do not follow.
''The Jewish mother rule was created so that Jewish men would have no moral obligations to any children they had with gentile women. There's no other reason behind it.''
As much as comments like this often border on anti-Semitism, I am afraid to say that you are correct.
If you are sick of the ''I love Jesus 100% signature'', copy and paste this into your profile! -
cajayson8301 — 14 years ago(July 23, 2011 04:16 AM)
Reading this thread has fascinated me on the grounds that this was a first I had heard of Jews requiring a Jewish mother in order to remain a part of that faith based system (prior to this conversation, all I knew about Judaism was the following: they follow the Kosher diet, celebrate Hanukkah, worship at a synagogue, attend Sabbath, circumcision, hold Bar Mitzvah). In hindsight, knowledge on the Jewish ancestry is somewhat good (re: The Holocaust, ancient homeland was in modern day Israel, multiple events in the Israeli/Palestinian feud, one lineage could be through an Ashkernazi Jew. My apologies on the misspelling, if any).
Nevertheless, a friend of mine who is of Hispanic descent practices the Jewish faith so I asked him one day if either parent had Jewish ancestry and/or was a Jew via Judaism. According to him, neither issue applied and therefore he was drawn to the religion on his own journey.
Interesting topic. Thanks all!
Urology department. Can you please hold?