Beethoven's Eroica voted greatest symphony of all time by conductors
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fontinau — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 12:42 PM)
Well here's an argument for THE theme: You once singled out the Pas de deux from Stravinsky's Apollo, and I said it sounds to me like it starts as "Wie die Blumen im Lenze erblüh'n" from Léhar's The Merry Widow and soon becomes Satie's "Je te veux" - but what I've noticed since then is that the passage that links the two together seems to be copied from the climax of drumroll THE theme by Tchaikovsky.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 01:53 PM)
Hmmm, interesting. Will have to listen to all three to see if I hear the connection. Still haven't gotten around to The Merry Widow, though (opera listening been dominated by Verdi recently).
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 03:21 PM)
Not really. I tried to go chronologically with those I had, because before then my Verdi listening had been rather sporadic and I wanted to try to hear his evolution. I did listen to several multiple times though, mostly on DVD/blu-rays. Still think Otello is his masterpiece, with Falstaff and Don Carlo not far behind, and La Traviata the next step down. Still can't quite get into Ballo and Forza or most of the early stuff. Rigoletto's power seems to lessen the more I hear it; Il Trovatore is still superficially fun. Aida still strikes me as weird; like Verdi doing an impression of Parsifal-era Wagner in a way combined with a kind of Rennaissance-music stasis. I don't think it works as a whole, but it's haunting in a way most Verdi isn't.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 02:03 AM)
I tried to go chronologically with those I had, because before then my Verdi listening had been rather sporadic and I wanted to try to hear his evolution. I did listen to several multiple times though, mostly on DVD/blu-rays. Still think Otello is his masterpiece, with Falstaff and Don Carlo not far behind, and La Traviata the next step down. Still can't quite get into Ballo and Forza or most of the early stuff. Rigoletto's power seems to lessen the more I hear it; Il Trovatore is still superficially fun. Aida still strikes me as weird; like Verdi doing an impression of Parsifal-era Wagner in a way combined with a kind of Rennaissance-music stasis. I don't think it works as a whole, but it's haunting in a way most Verdi isn't.
Thank you! Strongly agree on Aida - it's like Verdi had these ideas for an otherworldly masterpiece and said "'Mu ha ha ha, I'll make the suckers dig for it through layers of grand opera clichés and bombast!" - hey, kind of like Götterdämmerung.
Early stuff is frustrating like, do you know Charles V's big aria from Ernani? I could maybe just forget the whole opera otherwise, but when the wistfulness suddenly turns into nobility at "e vincitor dei secoli" - chills.
Any opinion on the requiem? -
Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 09:28 AM)
I do think Wagner was more naturally suited to that "otherworldly grand opera bombast" than Verdi, so Gotterdammerung feels a much more natural fit. Verdi's own "grand opera" masterpiece is Don Carlo, and the differences between its messy politics and humanism and Aida's rather chilling "otherness" is striking. It just occurred to me that maybe Wagner's Meistersinger is the mirror of Aida: Wagner trying to do a humorous and humanistic "grand opera" and being slightly awkward at it, despite its occasional successes. To make a literary comparison, Wagner is Milton and Verdi is Shakespeare: Aida is Shakespeare trying to write Paradise Lost, Meistersinger is Milton trying to write The Tempest.
I think I know the aria you're talking about from Ernani. I think most all the early stuff have moments in them while the operas don't gel as a whole, either from innate flaws in the dramaturgy or Verdi just not yet knowing how make the drama more than the sum of its parts.
It's been a long time since I heard The Requiem, though I've always enjoyed it. I guess once I tire of the operas I'll probably give it several listens and reform my opinions.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 10:37 AM)
It just occurred to me that maybe Wagner's Meistersinger is the mirror of Aida: Wagner trying to do a humorous and humanistic "grand opera" and being slightly awkward at it, despite its occasional successes. To make a literary comparison, Wagner is Milton and Verdi is Shakespeare: Aida is Shakespeare trying to write Paradise Lost, Meistersinger is Milton trying to write The Tempest.
Superb. -
Tony-358 — 9 years ago(August 10, 2016 07:46 AM)
Aida predates Parsifal by about ten years.
When he composed Aida, the only mid to late period Wagner operas that had been performed were Tristan and Meistersinger but Verdi certainly didn't know the music at that point.
Aida is actually a throwback to Meyerbeer style Grand Opera. The first two acts certainly are.
Listen to the Sherrill Milnes/Joan Sutherland Rigoletto. Its power never diminishes. -
Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 10, 2016 10:45 AM)
Aida predates Parsifal by about ten years.
I know that. Didn't mean to imply Verdi was directly influenced by Parsifal, merely that it reminded me of it. Otello and Falstaff may have had some of Wagner's general influence, though.
Listen to the Sherrill Milnes/Joan Sutherland Rigoletto. Its power never diminishes.
I have. It's a great recording, but I was focusing on DVDs/Blu-rays. It could very well be that I just didn't watch any performances that were remotely at that same level.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
Edward_de_Vere — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 11:53 AM)
All I can say is that neither THE theme, nor the forte rendition in the third movement, do anything for me. I'm not the biggest Bruckner fan (though I'm warming to him more than I used to be), but I'd say I enjoy the scherzo of the 9th symphony more than anything in Tchaikovsky's 6th. It occurred to me the other day when discussing rhythm VS melody in music that it sounds vaguely like the Danse des Adolescentes in Rite of Spring.
On a side note, speaking of Bruckner, all his late Scherzos make me curious about his sense of what a joke is. Given their monumental, mechanized momentum he probably would've found a panzer assault a laugh riot.
I'd rank Bruckner's symphonies alongside Brahms and Beethoven if it weren't for the scherzos and finales. In his better symphonies, the opening movements and adagios are superb, while the scherzos sound like a broken record and the finales are often a barely coherent mess (this is especially the case in the 3d symphony, I usually only listen to the first two movements when playing a recording, but it's true to a lesser degree in the 4th and 6th as well). There are some exceptions to this: the finale of Bruckner's 5th is as good as any of Brahms' symphonic movements when it comes to pure musical logic and thematic development, and his later scherzos, particularly the 9th, contain some interesting music rather than just noisy repeats of some Austrian folk tune.
As to the dark quality and lack of humor in Bruckner's later scherzos, I would have thought that as an admirer of Mahler you'd appreciate them. The scherzo in Mahler's 6th is as dark as the other movements. -
Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 12:45 PM)
I think all of his movements can vary in quality across the symphonies. I rarely find the finales incoherent; often they just find ways to combine their new themes with the themes from the previous movements, the problem being that Bruckner wasn't the subtle craftsman Brahms was so these attempts can come off as rather awkward and ungainly; the 5th being perhaps the exception (as you note). The problem I have with the adagios is their glacial pace, with Bruckner really straining to write something as sublime as it is imposing. I can understand why someone could be more attune to this approachI appreciate the organ music of Bach for a similar qualitybut they've yet to move me to anything but boredom. The opening movements often have the same quality, but the momentum usually at least keeps them exciting.
As to the dark quality and lack of humor in Bruckner's later scherzos, I would have thought that as an admirer of Mahler you'd appreciate them. The scherzo in Mahler's 6th is as dark as the other movements.
Perhaps you misunderstood as I DO appreciate Bruckner's late scherzos! The last paragraph was just me making a little joke.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
Edward_de_Vere — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 11:48 AM)
I'll trade you all the musical value in, I don't know, let's say Bruckner, for THE theme - you know the one.
I'd say there is more musical value in the finale of Bruckner's 5th symphony than in all of Tchaikovsky's symphonies combined.
The only thing I really get out of Tchaikovsky's symphonies is some lovely themes and excellent orchestration (but even there, the themes in the adagios of Bruckner's 7th and 8th are as good if not better than anything in Tchaikovsky or Dvorak's symphonies). I can enjoy Tchaikovsky's symphonies for what they're worth (except for his 2d and 3d, which don't even provide much melodic enjoyment), but to rank them along the best of the best is a stretch. -
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EvilSpaceApple — 9 years ago(September 07, 2016 02:22 PM)
"Brahms's 4th is beloved because of its musical sophistication; it's basically the apotheosis of Brahms's classicism, eschewing the paradigm of romantic expression for pure musical formalism[]"
I'm sure you're right, formally speaking, about its eschewing romantic expression for pure musical formalism, but how do I explain to myself why, then, I find the second movement to be one of the most moving expressions of pastoral melancholy (really, I can't put the mood of the movement into words, it's something to do with deep longing and something like, but not quite, sadness) that I know?
WE SLEEP. THEY LIVE.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(September 13, 2016 12:06 PM)
how do I explain to myself why, then, I find the second movement to be one of the most moving expressions of pastoral melancholy
Because pure musical formalism isn't anathema to emotion. Bach isn't only beloved because of his mathematical complexity, even though it's there.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.
