Does This One Have A Gay Angle????
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Skye_Reynolds — 12 years ago(May 14, 2013 03:25 PM)
I think the two spears and the way that they interlocked arms while drinking was very telling. When I read the trivia after seeing the film for the first time, I was not at all surprised. There's also that kinda awkward moment where Boyd is smiling dreamily and Heston looks to be a bit uncomfortable. He has no idea what's going on and it makes his character seem as if he trying to ignore or downplay their history.
Rest in Peace, Ray Harryhausen
(June 29, 1920 May 7, 2013) -
preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 14, 2013 04:34 PM)
Oh Boyd was acting it to pieces and it worked! I saw it back in the 1990s at a revival cinema. I didn't know about the gay subtext but it was SO obvious:) Some people in the audience were laughing out loud (in a nice way) and others were sort of looking around puzzled why people were laughing:) Heston to his dying day said there was NO gay subtext at all. Butthere is.
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preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 17, 2013 11:40 AM)
I'd be more willing to believe Vidal over Heston. Let's face itHeston was homophobic. He probably hated Vidal just cause he was gay. We'll never know for sure though. However if Vidal was fired for trying to add it why was Boyd obviously playing it as if he were in love with Heston? The looks he's giving him are pretty obvious.
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preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 17, 2013 05:48 PM)
From what I heard Heston was FURIOUS when he heard that but the studio told him to shut up and play nice:) He got all riled up again when "The Celluloid Closet" came out calling Vidal a liar and every name in the book. U know the censors MIGHT have caught the gay subtextbut Messala died so that made it OK:) I remember wheb "The Children's Hour" came out a few years later. It's made VERY clear that Shirley MacLaine's character is a lesbianbut she commits suicide so that makes it OK:)
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Skye_Reynolds — 12 years ago(May 20, 2013 12:47 PM)
That's true. If it was punished, "cured,"or a character attribute of someone we're not supposed to like, it was seemingly okay with Hollywood's censors at the time. Messala probably represented the
dangers
of homosexuality. It's laughable now, but it is kinda sad.
In regards to The Children's Hour,
the teachers won their case in real life and neither took her own life.
If the film were remade today, it would probably make Audrey Hepburn's character bisexual and the two would live happily ever after together.
Honestly, I had no idea that I knew so much about Hollywood's depiction of homosexuality in the early to mid-20th century. I have seen a few films out of curiosity - such as Victim or The Children's Hour - but it's not like it's something I've actively focused on. I just watch a lot of old movies.
I do still need to watch and/or read The Celluloid Closet though. I bet that's a very interesting one. -
preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 20, 2013 01:26 PM)
I didn't know "The Children's Hour" was based on a real life incident. I do know when they first filmed it (under the title "These Three") it was a more conventional love trianglebut that was in the 1930s. No way would they do lesbian stuff back thenit wasn't allowed!
I know a lot about it because I'm gay and I love atching movies. This may sound silly but when you're gay or lesbian you "see" stuff other str8 people might not get. I remermber when I was 8 and watching "Dracula's Daughter". There's a STRONG lesbian subtext in one scene. I got it right away but my buddies (all str8 guys) didn't catch it at all. BTW "Victim" is a great film. However when it played on TV ALL the references to homosexuality were cut out making the film incomprehensible! Sad. Also it's interesting that Dirk Bogarde took the role. He was gay but kept it a secret.
BTW SEE "The Celluloid Closet". The book is very dry and academic and there's more than a few incorrect takes on different movies. -
Skye_Reynolds — 12 years ago(May 22, 2013 12:08 AM)
If I'm not mistaken, and I could be, The Children's Hour was loosely based off of a case in Ireland which took place in the early 1900s. The two teachers who were accused sued for libel and won, but the damage to their reputations had already been done. I've seen These Three, and if memory serves I thought it was the better directed of the two films, but I found The Children's Hour to be far more memorable.
As for Dracula's Daughter, the original screenplay was more open about her sexuality. It definitely had traces of sadomasochistic fantasies to it as well. If I remember correctly, she was supposed to torture both male and female victims - and hypnotize them into liking it. There was also going to be a wall adorned with chains and whips alluding to things not shown in the film. (The censors rejected it.)
Thanks for the heads up on which version of The Celluloid Closet to go with. This has been a very pleasant discussion so far. -
preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 22, 2013 05:05 AM)
I agree that "These Three" was the better directed version but "Children's" impact was stronger. Also I know "Children's" was HEAVILY edited before it came out. The entire scene when they went on trial was cut out entirely! Shirley MacLaine mentions it in her autobiography. There's also a pic of the trial scene in "The Celluloid Closet" book.
I didn't know that about the original screenplay of "Dracula's Daughter". THAT would have been interesting if it were allowed:) As it is I'm surprised they got by with that one scene. Maybe because it was made clear that she was in love with a guy later on. AND she is killed at the end so
I heard in the original script of Hammer's vampire film "Brides of Dracula" the main vampire (Baron Meinster NOT Dracula despite the title) was going to be bisexualbut the censors rejected it. I think it was because the actor playing the role was openly gay. -
Skye_Reynolds — 12 years ago(May 22, 2013 02:13 PM)
That's all new to me. I've seen Brides of Dracula, but I didn't know that the actor who played the lead vampire was gay or that a courtroom scene had been filmed for The Children's Hour. Mercifully, its omission didn't hurt the film's narrative structure, but I'm sure it would have added to the drama to see how everyone reacted in court.
Also, I didn't mention it in the last post, but you're right about Victim. It was a good movie and Dirk Bogarde was a good casting choice. I think the scene where he confesses to his wife "I WANTED HIM" had probably the biggest emotional impact out of any in the film. Second place would go to the elderly barber talking about having been arrested for something he had no control over.
That was a film which escaped the ax when it came to censorship. Several lines were originally to have been cut, but then all but one of them were restored. I think the only part which didn't make it into the movie was a reference to an adolescent boy who "made the wrong decision." I guess the acknowledgement of teen homosexuality was too much for them at the time, but that still leaves the film's overall message intact. -
preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 23, 2013 04:54 AM)
I agree that "The Children's Hour" works beautifuly without the trial sequence but it was confusing the first time I saw it. When the aunt returns to the school and they yell at her for not showinfg up at trial I was like "WHAT trial"? I think that sequence was cut out because the two women were found guilty of "having sinful sexual knowledge of each other". That might have been too strong for 1962. Rememberthe word lesbian was never said during the entire film.
I agree about "Victim" too. "The Cellulouid Closet" film actually does show that sequence when he confesses to his wife. The best thing about the film was the gay men are not made fun of and don't act fem and aren't lisping words. For its time that was revolutionary. The only American film that I can think of from that era that REALLY pushed the boundaries of showing gay men was "Suddenly Last Summer". There's a lot of pointless dialogue that leads to nothing but it's made clear a man is gay and is "using" boys that him mom and sis "procure" for him! It's a terrible movie and author Tennessee Williams was purportedly livid when he saw it but it was a huge hit and paved the way for better films. -
Skye_Reynolds — 12 years ago(May 24, 2013 03:58 PM)
If I'm not mistaken, Tennessee Williams disliked all of the film adaptations of his plays. Of course, they kept modifying the endings to minimize or omit the tragedies or to see to it that the guilty parties were punished in some manner. I could see how that would upset him.
As for The Children's Hour, I didn't even notice that the word lesbian was never spoken. -
preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 24, 2013 04:44 PM)
That's right! I remember he hated "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" because they made the ending all happy and the two guys who had gay sex in the play NEVER had it in the movie!
As for not ever hearing the word 'lesbian' it took me 4 or 5 viewings before I realized it was never uttered:) -
belaglik — 11 years ago(March 20, 2015 09:41 PM)
The way I see it, if you think it's there, then it's there. That scene reminded me a lot of the death scene in a much later Paramount film:
Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
(stay with me here! I promise not to Trek out too much.) I don't really follow slash fanfiction, but I do know much has been written regarding Kirk and Spock's relationship exploring the possibility that it may be more than platonic. Is it just an intense bromance or is there more there? I think the same could be said of Jack and David. Yes, they like girls, too, but it's expected that they would.
Speaking of homoeroticism, did anyone notice the lesbian couple in the Paris nightclub scene? Look where the camera sort of does a flyover over several tables with couples seated at them until they get to where Jack and the others are sitting. -
hamlet-16 — 10 years ago(May 29, 2015 11:02 PM)
I think Wellman very much intended the homo-eroticism it is not an uncommon theme in war film the guys are not homosexual (not in the film or in real life) but they have a deep deep bond from experiences of war.
The medal scene just before intermission is rather odd am still trying to decide what Wellman was getting at there?
And yes the two ladies sharing a table in the nightclub were pretty astounding.. but you know Paris .sure would not have happened in Pleasantville Tx. in 1926 -
poetcomic1 — 11 years ago(March 11, 2015 01:59 PM)
No, sorry too much focus on babes. Just buddies. If you want a gay angle try Ben-Hur. The director and the actors and (of course) the gay co-star Stephen Boyd, picked up the the subtext of the movies but they all said DON'T tell Charleton Heston - he'll freak out!
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PopperTheKungFuDragn — 9 years ago(December 03, 2016 11:48 AM)
Not at all. Their caressing at the end was rather on the intimate side, but I think its just the way men were back then considering the kiss the men got when receiving their medals.
Poorly Lived and Poorly Died, Poorly Buried and No One Cried