What are the reasons for Barry's downfall?
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Barry Lyndon
maasoumy — 10 years ago(April 11, 2015 05:34 AM)
Could Barry help not falling down? He sounded misplaced among the aristocrats and high society and Lord Ludd was right in describing him as an opportunist. What was his mistake, if any, that led to his downfall?
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EvilBaldDude — 10 years ago(November 15, 2015 06:50 AM)
Ironically, that was possibly the one decent thing he did in the entire film. A show of paternal affection for the boy, after all the humiliation of his his mother, and his father, and the beatings,. But it was too little, far too late. And it was what lost him everything
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Kawada_Kira — 9 years ago(July 08, 2016 03:33 AM)
I agree. I think he was lost as soon as he beat the boy up in front of all his friends, causing them to turn away from him. He probably would have obtained a title soon and be set if he hadn't done that. By the time of the duel it was just too late.
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Druffmaul — 9 years ago(November 07, 2016 10:27 AM)
If the duel was really about Bullingdon being humiliated, Bullingdon would have challenged Barry immediately after the fight. If it was about humiliation, Bullingdon would have considered the matter closed after Barry fired into the ground. Duels usually weren't about killing. They were about defending one's own honor. Both parties failing to hit their mark was actually the optimal outcome of any duel; both parties could walk away with their heads held high because they faced death to defend their own honor.
Bullingdon came up with the idea of challenging Barry to a duel long after the fact because it was his only chance to kill him legally, without having to go to prison for it. He had realized the only way to save his mother and his family name and fortune was to shoot Barry. -
cathyrobertson — 9 years ago(December 30, 2016 12:17 AM)
I saw this film years ago in 1988, and felt for the stepson, Lord Bullington, but after getting the DVD for Christmas and watching it for the first time in almost 30 years, I think Lord Bullington was a spoiled and self-entitled jerk, and Momma's boy. I totally sympathized with him at the time being a young adult, but my view has changed.
I'm not going to express myself so eloquently as some of you did into the complexities of the characters, but that he humiliated his stepfather and mother in the company of others, airing his grievances in such a public and petty manner, he deserved that beating and more. Why others didn't see that, and that Barry Lyndon was the villain is a mystery to me since most the the aristocracy at that time weren't saints, either. Would they have like a spoiled child making such a public furor? It didn't make sense to me.
Then challenging his stepfather to a duel when he was grieving the loss of his son, and punishing himself with guilt made me even more angry. Lyndon was so broken and wanted no more quarrel he fired his gun into the ground, but his stepson took another shot and guffawed with glee.
When I first saw the film years ago, I thought Lord Billington was angry about his half-brother's death, but no, he was just a pompous jerk hellbent on revenge at the worst time of his stepfather's life.
I don't think I will read the novel as it seems too depressing. -
SealedCargo — 5 years ago(April 10, 2020 05:09 AM)
if he blew his head off, he'd have nothing. if he didn't do it, he'd have nothing. it was a nothing/nothing situation. killing a lord would have gotten him arrested.
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TravisChaplin — 10 years ago(May 22, 2015 02:50 PM)
Barry never really fit in anywhere he went. He was too inhibited to ravish his cousin, though she was clearly giving him the green light ( he was as confused by the " Irish Way" as Captain Quin was). He also couldn't make it as a fugitive, as he was robbed right away. He was most at home in the army, winning his comrades' respect by beating his fellow soldier in a fight. He was able to get out of the army by assuming an officer's identity, which led to him spying on the Chevalier ( and disguising himself as the Chevalier at one point, another assumed identity). Him and the Chevalier go into business together conning people in card games ( in a way, another disguise).
Barry tried to continue this strategy of assuming others identities by trying to position himself as an aristocrat ( though he never had a title). Barry's downfall came from the fact that he could never fully assume this identity, he couldn't shake who he really was. The old solider in him came out when he publicly beat his stepson ( notice how that scene and the boxing scene are filmed in similar manners). In the end, he was condemned to being just another footnote in history. But, in a way, everyone is. -
tieman64 — 10 years ago(June 18, 2015 01:07 PM)
Could Barry help not falling down? He sounded misplaced among the aristocrats and high society
It's a bit like Napoleon, Kubrick's scuttled film project.
Both Barry and Napoleon are "lowly" outsiders who force their way into high-society, and both are disparaged by the old aristocratic/royal order. -
kenny-164 — 10 years ago(July 06, 2015 11:54 AM)
Re: Barry's downfall. Imo we hear the narrator over the course of the film make observations which are not entirely reliable. What then to make of the assertion that in effect Barry was the sort who could accumulate a fortune, but not maintain one. But I think ultimately the problem for him as a practical matter was Bullingdon.
In the novel Barry's troubles are with a variety of the members of Lady Lyndon's family. These are compressed in the film into Bullingdon and his role in the narrative.
A major problem for Barry was obviously his attempt to gain a title. While this was a matter of intention on his part, it was of a defensive sort, desired to protect his son, Brian. And it was in fact likely that Bullingdon would not be wholly generous to his half brother when he got the chance.
I think the film suggests that Barry was having some financial issues prior to the attempt to obtain a title. But they were likely manageable, and it was really the title effort that was so problematic for him and for hte Lyndon estate. What made that even worse was that the effort failed, and then it was that the creditors swooped down on him, and that was primarily of Bullingdon's doing as well.
Add in that not only did Bullingdon cripple Barry in a cowardly fashion, he engineered the separation of Barry from Lady Lyndon in a way that served Bullingdon's own interests, but not really of Lady Lyndon's.
So it would seem that the simple answer to the OP's question was Bullingdon. -
trisul — 10 years ago(July 10, 2015 01:56 PM)
Surely, it is obvious that lack of love for his wife and stepson, and especially his disrespect for her, were the seeds of his downfall. This is what caused Bulingdon's hate and also necessitated the acquiring of a title to mitigate any negative consequence.
Or, one could say he was a rogue and that the reason. High society had already accepted him, so that was not the problem. -
kenny-164 — 10 years ago(July 13, 2015 09:58 AM)
ah, the old Defense of Bullingdon perspective. Both the film and novel make clear that Bullingdon did not like Barry from the very beginning, before Barry cheated on Lady Lyndon. The novel also made clear that Lady Lyndon's family in general never approved of Barry, disliking his lower class and Irish lineage.
You have the causes and effects wrong. -
trisul — 10 years ago(July 13, 2015 10:23 AM)
This has no bearing on my argument. The question was what led to his downfall. It is completely to be expected that the son will not initially like the step father, especially a son attached to the mother. In the film, Barry did not give Bullingdon any reason to like him, quite the opposite. He danced in, seduced Bullingdon's mother and immediately started lording it over the boy. Later, he disrespected the mother, was brutal to the son and was squandering the son's inheritance created by the family lineage.
Why should Bullingdon "like" him? -
kenny-164 — 10 years ago(July 14, 2015 10:15 AM)
First of all by the time Bullingdon had really sought to take Barry down, there had been a raproachement between Barry and Lady Lyndon. This was clear not only from the encounter during Lady Lyndon's bath but from the more telling way in which Lady Lyndon did not oppose Barry's effort to obtain a title, and in effect supported it by agreeing to the expenditures involved. Yet in self serving fashion Bullingdon created the spectacle during the musical performance, which was supplemented by the spreading of rumors about alleged mistreatment of him by Barry. This effectively ended Barry's efforts, and it was no coincidence that this protected Bullingdon from any claims by his half brother.
Earlier on it is true that Bullingdon witnessed the wooing of his mother by Barry, but also with the advice from the narrator that Bullingdon was uncommonly attached to his mother. Then, shortly after the marriage, we have this conversation between Reverand Runt and Bullingdon:
Reverand Runt: My Lord Bullingdon, you seem particularly glum today? You should be happy that your mother has remarried.
Bullingdon: Not in this way. And not in such haste.
(pause)
And certainly not to this man.
Runt: I think you judge your mother too harshly.
(pause)
Do you not like your new father?
Bullingdon: Not very much. He seems to me little more than a common opportunist.
(pause)
I don't think he loves my mother at all.
And it hurts me to see her make such a fool of herself.
This was before there was ANY indication of infidelity between Barry and Lady Lyndon.
While in the sequence of events Barry dallying with Brian's nursemaid follows, this is after Brian's birth and the passage of time. No doubt Bullingdon was struck on seeing that dalliance. But he was not present when Barry then made up to Lady Lyndon, and then of course was the occasion when Bullingdon would not kiss Barry goodbye in front of several people, much to Lady Lyndon's displeasure. Bullingdon accused her of insulting the memory of his father, Lord Lyndon, again much to Lady Lyndon's displeasure.
At that point, Barry punished Bullingdon for I believe the first time, advising him that as others "serve" him, so he will treat them. Then the narrator advises:
Barry believed, and not without some reason, that it had beena declaration of war against him by Bullingdon from the startand that the evil consequences that ensued were entirely of Bullingdon's creating.
Now of course the word some indicates a lessening of the charge, but I think it clear in the context of the manner of Thackeray's writing, this was merely included out of ironic understatement. By that point Bullingdon had been described as fixated on his mother, had felt he knew better than her when it was appropriate to remarry (after a year since Lord Lyndon'd death), cast aspersions on Barry's background, and then insulted him in front of others. And this was all before the business of pursuing a title began.
And then of course the specific and particular effect of Bullingdon shooting Barry's leg off and the practical effect that had cannot be underestimated, coming as it did out of an act of self serving cowardice in his part, not accepting that Barry could have easily and justifiably killed him, but chose not to do so.
And all of this in self serving terms. It would have been another thing if Bullingdon was acting in concert with his mother, pursuant to her wishes. but he was not.
I frankly never understand what kind of aberrant view of human nature would lead someone to take Bullingdon's side in all this. For myself I had merely noted the cause and effect of Bullingdon's presence in Barry's life and its relation to his downfall. I have not defended Barry, and certainly do not think he was without fault, not by a long shot.
But continue defending Bullingdon if you must. -
trisul — 10 years ago(July 14, 2015 01:28 PM)
I frankly never understand what kind of aberrant view of human nature would lead someone to take Bullingdon's side in all this.
First, I am not "taking sides", I am strive to understand both characters. However, it is a simple fact that the movie shows Bullingdon's assessment of Bary to have been correct:
Bullingdon: Not very much. He seems to me little more than a common opportunist.
(pause)
I don't think he loves my mother at all.
And it hurts me to see her make such a fool of herself.
His assessment is correct and his love for his mother and his attachment to her are not to be criticized, they are virtues. Furthermore, you seek to equate the responsibility of a child with the responsibilities of the newcomer adult, which is most unfair, especially in the view of how little Barry brought to the family and how much he took from them.
Having said that, I was not at all "defending" Bullingdon, I was giving my opinion as to where it all went downhill for Barry, or if you prefer, I am critical of Barry. Although it must be said that the movie presents both sides of both of them, the good and the bad. -
kenny-164 — 10 years ago(July 14, 2015 01:39 PM)
No one is NOTHING MORE than a common opportunist. The class based animus there reeks. Elsewhere Bullingdon refers to Barry's Irishness in virtually racist terms. You must have missed that part.
I also do not think it clear Barry has no love for Lady Lyndon.
Finally if you do not see that Bullingdon has an unnatural attachment to his mother, well
No doubt Bullingdon saw things in Barry he did not like, and there were certainly things in Barry to not like. But he was primarily motivated by self interest and gave expression to class based and ethnically unacceptable bases for hating Barry. Also unforgiveable was the way he reached the conclusion about the best way to deal with Barry without consulting with his mother at every step of the way.
His is a perfect example of an expressed chivalry hiding a condescension and pursuit of his own self interest.
Did you not feel it was a problem that Bullingdon proceeded with the duel after Barry shot into the ground? What kind of person would do such a thing? -
trisul — 10 years ago(July 14, 2015 09:52 PM)
Did you not feel it was a problem that Bullingdon proceeded with the duel after Barry shot into the ground? What kind of person would do such a thing?
As I said, the movie presented both sides of both characters. This was Barry's finest moment, and in Bullingdon hate won over. On the other side, he was scared out of his whits to be dueling Barry, but he stood his ground for what he believed were his rights and his mother's.
The picture painted is not black and white, it is realistic.
You seem to be very touchy about the class and ethnicity, judging it by the standards of our times, instead of the standards of the times of the tale.
Regarding the great love of Barry for Lady Lyndon, that idea was blown away by the contemptuous way he was blowing smoke in her face right after the wedding. There's isn't much in the film to depict it.