Better than the first…
-
simest — 9 years ago(January 01, 2017 03:29 PM)
I don't find any of the films "technically superior" to the other.
Which would indicate that you don't find one to be
better
than the other.you just prefer one.
That is what I was curious to determine.
It's just with you saying earlier in the thread that HALLOWEEN II was "superior for many reasons", I wanted to clarify if you meant it was literally a better conceived and executed work, or simply that it appealed to you more on a personal preference level.
And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all. -
paulkersey-31019 — 9 years ago(January 01, 2017 11:04 PM)
Wow. Long interesting discussion. To be frank I cant pick 1 over the other. They're both equally great for different reasons. I'm a big fan of slashers so I liked the firsts originality & story working with low blood & stalking but also I like violence with bloody high body counts. They had to be different or pple would moan about carbon copy. Pt 2 is a worthy sequel. If someone thinks its not they need to gain perspective & watch all the crapfests out there that it coulda been.
-
dave626 — 9 years ago(January 02, 2017 08:05 AM)
Everyone has their own opinions. To which they are entitled. Perspective means looking at the time frame of the movie, as well as behind it and ahead of it.
Every angle. By that, I mean as I've always stood by, Halloween II didn't have to add body count, blood to be on pace with the competition. It also didn't have to be a carbon copy of the original, which it wasn't. It was a continuation. No more babysitting, the aftermath. And looking beyond it, to 4 and beyond it wasn't as bad as parts of those.
Friday 2 was a worthy sequel, because it continued the story, didn't change it's MO and felt like a new chapter. Jason instead of the Mother. Wasn't a carbon copy either. Too bad 3 and beyond went for gimmicks.
As for Halloween II, you have to look behind the camera as well. Carpenter didn't want to do another Michael story, didn't even direct it and was drunk when he wrote it. Wallace completely abandoned the project when he read the script. JLC barely talks about this one. All those things tell me even the people who made it didn't like it. That's a bad sign. If they don't like it, why should I?
As I've said ad nauseum, I have my reasons for disliking this movie. Some people like it and that's okay. Some don't, that's also okay, respect the individual. In my opinion, it's nowhere near as good as the original, much less surpass it. Personal bias aside, look at the facts. I know it works both ways, though.
But you have to admit this one does not get the praise the others do.
"He came home." - Dr. Sam Loomis from the original HalloweeN -
thylacine80 — 9 years ago(January 02, 2017 08:55 AM)
for Halloween II, you have to look behind the camera as well
No.I don't have to do that.
I think it's an excellent movie and I find it better than the first, who itself was awesome.
But I'm not interested about what happened "behind the camera" to judge a movie.
The feuds or conflicts behind a film do not alter my appreciation of it.
even the people who made it didn't like it. That's a bad sign. If they don't like it, why should I?
You obviously need to know what the filmakers think about their movie to decide if you have to like or dislike it.
You shouldn't. You have the right to think by yourself.
For example, I like the film Goldfinger. The director himself could come out of the grave to say "MY MOVIE WAS BAD !!!", it wouldn't change my love for the movie.
But you have to admit this one does not get the praise the others do
Again, that doesn't bother me at all. I have no idea if I'm on the majority and I honestly don't really care.
Whatever floats people 's boats is fine.
I think you take it too seriously. It is only a film and you yourself admitted that it's all a matter of taste.
Take care. -
cjh8504 — 9 years ago(January 02, 2017 04:59 PM)
Dave is a loon. He can't think for himself. JLC and Carpenter hardly talk about it, and or dislike it, so it mustn't be as good as the original. Silly.
RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst! -
dave626 — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 04:09 AM)
Yes, you actually do. You see, in order to back up your claim that it's better than the original, you have to have all the facts, and I mean all the facts, not the ones you pick and choose to suit your argument. That is what's called an uninformed opinion and the furthest thing from fact. You started this by stating facts, when they're really your opinions.
As you can see, I've been backing up my claims with facts. So therefore, mine is the complete and informed opinion. I don't need filmmakers to tell me it was bad, I already knew that. But when they say it themselves, it goes from solo amateur opinion to professionally backed up opinion. So if I say it's bad, and they say it's bad and you say it's good, who do you think I'm going to believe?
Them, in case you were wondering. As I said, you are entitled to this opinion, but that's all it is. And one that's not even backed up by the people who made it. Just a few random strangers. So the majority of us disagree with you.
Of course I take it seriously, I have been a fan of the franchise since before 1988. That's almost 30 years. I've had time to research the crap out of these films and know them inside and out and base all my opinions on the facts presented.
Take care
"He came home." - Dr. Sam Loomis from the original HalloweeN -
thylacine80 — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 06:19 AM)
you have to have all the facts
All the facts are in the film, and I love the film more than I love Halloween part I.
The gossip facts about Jamie Lee curtis not talking about it or John Carpenter being drunk don't alter my appreciation of the film.
You seem almost offended that some people think part II is Superior to part I.
You shouldn't.
I truly respect the fact you prefer the original, and I think we should take it a little less to heart. -
cjh8504 — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 04:45 PM)
He is offended. And so are a lot of other people. They can't figure out why someone can like II more than the original. We must have no taste. Be heathens.
RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. RIP William Christopher. 2016 is the worst! -
thylacine80 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 12:00 PM)
He is offended. And so are a lot of other people.
Actually, that is not true. Every people ecxept him on this board peacefully enjoy sharing their opinions on the Halloween franchise.
Other people just told me it is all a matter of taste and no opinion is wrong or right.
"dave" is the first and only person I meet on Imdb to behave the way he does. -
Leo_Rossi — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 07:15 PM)
Man up and take him off of ignore if you're so worried about what he said.
He stated his reasons why he thinks Halloween is superior to Halloween II in a well thought out manner. This doesn't coincide with your opinion so I have no doubt you'd resort to calling him a loon, dumbass, idiot, moron, or whatever childish comback you would come up with at the moment. -
thylacine80 — 9 years ago(January 05, 2017 02:48 AM)
Yep, I agree.
As soon as someone is getting agressive in his opinions, I start ignoring him.
That's what I'm doing, and I won't start calling him a "loon" or a "dumbass"it would be childish and only add to his anger.
Let's just say somme prefer Halloween I and others Halloween 2, nobody is right or wrong and it is anyway a wonderful franchise.
Have a good day everyone !
-
dave626 — 9 years ago(January 05, 2017 07:20 AM)
Thank you. Wasn't trying to be aggressive, just a well thought out opinion. After all, I've had almost 30+ years to form it. I have stated my case, with facts, over opinions, which is something thy has yet to do in regards to II's superiority Facts > opinions.
But in either event, it's like beating a dead horse, as neither of us seems to be swayed or see the other's point. So no need for continued pointless arguing. Frankly, I've only come back for simest's and your thoughts because I wondered your takes on this. Which seems to float similar to mine.
Don't get me wrong, Halloween II was an okay movie, but it could've been so much better. Then again, it could've been a lot worse. It is what it is and by far, not a better film than the original, despite a few dissenting opinions. As of count, only thy and cj feel this way. 2 people. I'd be more impressed if it was 5 or 10.
"He came home." - Dr. Sam Loomis from the original HalloweeN -
thylacine80 — 9 years ago(January 05, 2017 09:05 AM)
Feelings about a piece of art are not about "facts" but about emotions and personal opinions.
Most of us had been fans of the franchise for 30+ years but we still behave like adults.
Never mind. Have a good day.
PS = I'm not interested in "impressing" anyone. Even if I was the only person in the world to prefer a film over another, I wouldn't mind at all, and I still would prefer it.
I never got the whole "we are more people so we are right !" thing, especially in art.
Take care. -
simest — 9 years ago(January 05, 2017 11:16 AM)
Feelings about a piece of art are not about "facts" but about emotions and personal opinions.
I've always shared this notion.
There's a simple distinction between the following:- Declaring one piece of work better or superior to another.
This is a statement of fact around a subjective issue and can be almost impossible to determine. It also can lead to lengthy debate where two diametrically opposed viewpoints will rarely find agreeable resolution. - Declaring a preference for one work over another.
This is the very nature of individuality and personal taste where wrongs and rights have no relevance.
This is why I have never claimed HALLOWEEN
is better
than HALLOWEEN II - even if in my mind I personally consider it such.
The reality is that I prefer it to its sequel and can give numerous reasons why.
But my reasons simply support my opinion rather than prove any fact.
The same should work for those who prefer HALLOWEEN II or indeed anyone assessing anything in the arts.
And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.
- Declaring one piece of work better or superior to another.
-
thylacine80 — 9 years ago(January 05, 2017 09:13 AM)
I just noticed in your last post that it seems like you'd like simiest to come back to state he's "on your side".. lol :
I've only come back for simest's and your thoughts because I wondered your takes on this. Which seems to float similar to mine.
I don't know how old you are, but boy you really need to gain greater depth. -
simest — 9 years ago(January 05, 2017 01:31 PM)
I've only come back for simest's and your thoughts because I wondered your takes on this. Which seems to float similar to mine.
I'd say my assessment of the two films is similar to yours in that I prefer the original by some distance and think it brings much more to the table than it's follow up.
My reasons are pretty much as listed in my earlier (lengthy) post along with a few others I didn't touch upon. The merits you value in HALLOWEEN and weaknesses you perceive in the sequel are by and large observations I am likely to share.
That said, I suspect I am generally fonder of HALLOWEEN II than you and therefore a little less harsh on it overall.
I judge it purely on how it plays out on screen and do not give thought to any turbulence in it's production history nor allow any criticisms by those who made it to influence my personal judgement of it.
This is partly because I feel art is very much down to personal appeal rather than backround history or the positive/negative reflections of those who produce it.
Those who wish to measure a work by including that criteria are of course welcome to do so.but I myself do not.
Roman Polanski made REPULSION - one of my favourite movies back in 1965. In his autobiography he is very critical of the movie and states it is shoddy and well below the standards he typically sets himself. He genuinely sounds like he is disappointed with the final outcome, yet critics generally - and certainly I - think it is a fairly remarkable work.
For that reason I can't allow Polanski's thoughts to play any role in how I judge REPULSION, because what he says and what I see do not align.
Similarly, I would be guilty of a double standard if I did not apply the same reasoning when judging all film and art in general. Therefore I have to dismiss Carpenter's negativity toward HALLOWEEN II when formulating my opinion of the film.
I suspect this is also the case for thylacine80, in terms of Carpenter's unflattering reminiscences of the film.
And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all. -
thylacine80 — 9 years ago(January 05, 2017 02:16 PM)
Roman Polanski made REPULSION - one of my favourite movies back in 1965.
Are you kidding ? ?? I LOVE repulsion !!!
It is one of my favorite movie ! I'd even say it belongs to my top 5 movies of all time.
I watched it maybe 20 times
I remember Polanski stating he didn't like it.
I disagree as I think it's his masterpiece.
So I guess you know "cul de sac", made by Polanski around the same time, with repulsion female lead' sister as the main character and DONALD PLEASANCE as well ?
This is wonderful too and the filming locations are fantastic.