Did Elsa deliberately choose a false cup?
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
ph75006 — 10 years ago(March 19, 2016 01:19 PM)
I've rewatched that scene in the grail room several times and am not sure if Elsa genuinely believed that the chalice she selected was the true grail. It seemed like she didn't put that much thought into her choice. Did she purposely want Donovan to die?
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Karl Aksel — 10 years ago(March 20, 2016 01:11 PM)
I've always suspected as much. You can see when Donovan first gasps in pain, the camera focuses briefly on Elsa's face and you can see a definite smirk. She is genuinely shocked afterwards, however, at Donovan's transformation - but that is probably because she wasn't prepared for the visual impact of the death scene.
The reason it's a bit ambiguous, however, is because afterwards she tells Indy, "it would not be made out of gold", as if this is something she just now learned. If she picked the wrong grail deliberately, there would be no need for this comment. But she was definitely smirking as Donovan felt the first ill effects -
Robbmonster — 9 years ago(April 10, 2016 09:32 AM)
The moment is played with ambiguity (which is great), but I always thought it defers more to the side the Elsa knew exactly what she was doing.
She probably didn't know she was giving Donovan a false Grail, but more likely she knew that by selecting randomly from the several dozen on display she was unlikely to choose the real McCoy. So she just chose the shiniest and most impressive.
Never defend crap with 'It's just a movie'
http://www.youtube.com/user/BigGreenProds -
tveron1 — 9 years ago(April 11, 2016 04:35 PM)
She probably didn't know she was giving Donovan a false Grail, but more likely she knew that by selecting randomly from the several dozen on display she was unlikely to choose the real McCoy. So she just chose the shiniest and most impressive.
I'd say she knew enough to know that she'd picked wrongly, but not which was the correct one and what a false one would do.
In the end, I think she knew DONOVAN more than she knew anything else. He was a fool, and she played him though perhaps regretted it once she got all skeleton-dusty.
God I love Elsa's character By far the most interesting sidekick besides Indy's dad.
Apathy on the rise, no one cares -
Kruleworld — 9 years ago(April 18, 2016 02:11 AM)
The moment is played with ambiguity (which is great), but I always thought it defers more to the side the Elsa knew exactly what she was doing.
She probably didn't know she was giving Donovan a false Grail,
Immediately after Donovan dies, Elsa is quick to give Indy the correct information regarding choosing the grail. This suggests to me that she quite definitely chose the wrong grail for Donovan. She knew EXACTLY what she was doing, apart maybe from him dying horribly, but it saved her having to do it herself.
"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok" -
tveron1 — 9 years ago(April 11, 2016 04:32 PM)
She definitely knew what she was doing. She goes out of her way to be the one to choose, she picks quickly, she presents it to him with this big leering grin, and Indy looks at her like 'wtf' and you see that moment where her smile goes a bit weak because he knows what she's done.
She just didn't realise what it would do to Donovan, hence the screaming.
Afterwards, she immediately says 'it would not be made out of gold' - she knew that all along.
Apathy on the rise, no one cares -
Robbmonster — 9 years ago(April 18, 2016 02:18 AM)
In all fairness, I think she actually says 'it need not be made of gold', which has a slightly different meaning. 'Would not' is very definitive, while 'need not' leaves room for uncertainty.
I'm not 100% certain, but that is how I always heard it.
Never defend crap with 'It's just a movie'
http://www.youtube.com/user/BigGreenProds -
tveron1 — 9 years ago(April 18, 2016 02:52 AM)
Next time I watch it I will subtitle it and see what it says. I've always heard 'would not', but I don't see a huge difference in interpretation (if there's a difference, it's subtle enough not to affect it)
Elsa knew what was up enough to get him killed But again, i doubt she expected thel.. End result
Apathy on the rise, no one cares -
Robbmonster — 9 years ago(May 02, 2016 04:41 AM)
Fair enough
Never defend crap with 'It's just a movie'
http://www.youtube.com/user/BigGreenProds -
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Chris12955 — 9 years ago(June 14, 2016 11:26 PM)
Most people also should know that Jesus would have very dark hair and an olive complexion, but they don't. I think Donovan was like most people, working on preconceptions about how our heroes(in this case divine figures) SHOULD be, rather than were. It is an unfortunately common mistake people make that even real life scholars are guilty of. I would say it was a tragic mistake Donovan made, but knowing who he was, I would think fortunate mistake would be the better wording.
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Karl Aksel — 9 years ago(September 10, 2016 09:44 AM)
Afterwards, she immediately says 'it would not be made out of gold' - she knew that all along.
That could also easily mean that
now
she knows it would not be made out of gold, because of what happened to Donovan. It does not imply that she knew before.
Even so, she probably knew - I always suspected as much, but that was solely based on the camera focusing on her smirk as Donovan suffered the first ill effect. I did not take her comment "it would not be made out of gold" to reinforce that hypothesis. -
tveron1 — 9 years ago(September 10, 2016 06:25 PM)
The way she says it, says to me that she knew.
If it was a realisation, i'd say her tone would be different, perhaps more panicked. She's relatively calm about it, without a hint of 'oh beep me I was wrong'. She only freaked out because she didn't expect it to go like That
Apathy on the rise, no one cares -
Karl Aksel — 9 years ago(September 11, 2016 02:03 AM)
The way she says it, says to me that she knew.
If it was a realisation, i'd say her tone would be different, perhaps more panicked. She's relatively calm about it, without a hint of 'oh beep me I was wrong'. She only freaked out because she didn't expect it to go like That
The way she said it sounded exactly like "oh beep me I was wrong", because her voice trembled as she said it. If it hadn't been for that line, I would have no doubt whatsoever that she knew. As it is, she would have had no reason to say anything at all if she actually knew. Don't get me wrong, I still think she knew, but "it would not be made out of gold" is what makes it all ambiguous to me. She would have no reason to educate Indy on the subject, so that statement definitely seems like she was reflecting on a poor choice. -
Karl Aksel — 9 years ago(September 11, 2016 01:23 PM)
Meh, agree to disagree ^_^
Guess we'll never know until someone thinks to ask Spielberg.
In fact, that'll be the second question I'll ask him if I happen to run into him on the bus or something. The first question being, "what was the deal with the second blade, and how did Indy know about it?" -
Chris12955 — 9 years ago(May 01, 2016 02:15 PM)
I think Spielberg wanted it to be intentional. Elsa quickly picks the gaudiest cup there is and hands it to Donovan with a big smile on her face. As soon as he stops looking she turns slightly to Indy and her grin turns to a stern serious expression. When Elsa next look at Donovan she has a smile on her face again. She only started to look shocked and then horrified after he started to rapidly age, then rot all while firmly holding her(yuck!) No wonder she was horrified. I suspect she was expecting him to simply Keel over and die, not that.
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Maddyclassicfilms — 9 years ago(June 12, 2016 12:08 PM)
I think she did choose the wrong one deliberately. Notice she picks the most magnificent for him, then during Indy's choice she says "it would not be made out of gold". Sure it was deliberate.
Go to bed Frank or this is going to get ugly
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