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otness_e — 9 years ago(May 24, 2016 03:59 PM)
If it weren't Disney's best movie, it would not have succeeded in actually ending the string of commercial and critical bombs in the box office (and in fact, if anything, it would have been remembered as the film that KILLED Disney). It's not like they haven't done other films before The Little Mermaid. They tried Black Cauldron, that bombed (and Katzenberg's edits certainly didn't help it get out of being a bomb either and if anything is what ensured it became a bomb), Robin Hood, which actually was unique in not only having the cast be animals, but actually HAVING Prince John himself be the direct main antagonist (in most stories, he's the bigger bad, while the direct antagonist was usually the Sheriff of Nottingham), and THAT not only ended up bombing, but also was particularly infamous for reusing a LOT of animation. The closest to a major box office and critical success Disney had prior to TLM was Who Framed Roger Rabbit, and even THAT was at best a joint venture, not something purely Disney.
And of course The Little Mermaid was judged by and based on its own merits. How else would it have managed to be a huge box office success ESPECIALLY after a long string of failures? Because people judged it by its merits.
And while I am particularly fond of TLM because it being my first movie barring The Hunt for Red October, my defense of The Little Mermaid and praise for it as well as my agreeing with Eko that BatB only got its praise because of The Little Mermaid's success has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether I envy BatB for overshadowing The Little Mermaid (heck, I don't even need to worry about it overshadowing TLM, because if anything, TLM overshadows it based on the massive amount of sales it generates without even needing the Disney Princess label). Even if I utterly hated The Little Mermaid or ANY Disney film or even ANY films in general, I still would have agreed with Eko on that front, and let's face it, Belle's design was actually derived from the same source as Ariel's, and even Maurice shared similar features to King Triton (namely the gray eyebrows and white hair with facial hair).
EDIT: I might as well add something else: When the writer of a film when trying to prop her main protagonist up does so by belittling her predecessors like claiming that, unlike Belle, they only had marriage and love as her goal, or outright lied about them even such was especially the case with Ariel (like when she claimed Ariel only gave up her voice and family for a man she just met, even when the film more than made clear that she already wanted to experience humanity long before she even knew Eric existed, let alone met him, and if anything, all Eric did was give her a nudge in the right direction), it's pretty clear the writer lost the argument regarding whether the character she wrote was even remotely good. And quite frankly, I still say it was a mistake to rewrite BatB to push a Simone de Beauvoir-esque feminist moral that had absolutely nothing to do with the intended moral of the tale. It's about as bad as the Maleficent film in that respect. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(May 24, 2016 04:11 PM)
Why the hell are you replying to me? I was talking to the other poster, not you.
TLM doing better than previous movies, just means the movie is better than that crap, nothing more. If BatB wasn't Disney's best movie, it would not have been the only Disney animated movie nominated for the Best Movie Oscar. My argument beats your argument. I win!
And of course The Little Mermaid was judged by and based on its own merits. How else would it have managed to be a huge box office success ESPECIALLY after a long string of failures? Because people judged it by its merits.
You utter moron. I was saying how appreciation of BatB was based on its own merits and not TLM's.
let's face it
Face that it's just your opinion and MOVE ON! -
otness_e — 9 years ago(May 24, 2016 04:20 PM)
Why the hell are you replying to me? I was talking to the other poster, not you.
TLM doing better than previous movies, just means the movie is better than that crap, nothing more. If BatB wasn't Disney's best movie, it would not have been the only Disney animated movie nominated for the Best Movie Oscar. My argument beats your argument. I win!
Not really. I know quite a few Oscar winners and Golden Globes winners that actually were horrible films. Like for example: Brokeback Mountain, or even Blue is the Warmest Color (I might as well add in that the two co-stars of that film utterly hated the experience of shooting for the film, were clearly uncomfortable and ashamed with the scenes they had to film, and even outright said they will not do any jobs for the director of that film ever again). I can also cite The Master, which won every award but best film (and the last was only because it already won enough awards as it was), and Lionel Chetwynd and Roger L. Simon both panned it as being genuinely horrible.
https://youtu.be/XTYELrS-lcI
As a matter of fact, the Oscars, if anything, have actually been increasingly left-wing propaganda for quite some time now. http://www.conservapedia.com/Academy_Award
I'd even argue that probably the only reason Beauty and the Beast even won the award is because the Disney film makers caved to the left-wing feminist agenda and hired a feminazi to write the script (and yes, considering what Woolverton constantly said as well as the general themes of her film, she can be called accurately a feminazi), especially considering the only reason it ended up retooled was because of complaints to how Ariel's characterization was too "cloyingly sexist" simply because she actually WANTED to go for a man, even when anyone who has actually WATCHED the film would know that Ariel did a lot of proactive heroic things, and that she wanted to become human long before Eric showed up, and even THEN, all he did was give her a nudge in the right direction (and it was her father who ultimately ended up unwittingly driving her to the sea witch with that tantrum of his).
Besides, You also mentioned me in your response to Eko.
You utter moron. I was saying how appreciation of BatB was based on its own merits and not TLM's.
And I also cited how, actually, it wasn't. In fact, I even cited quite a few elements that were taken directly FROM TLM, like the designs of Belle and even to some extent Maurice. Besides, if it truly was all that great on its own merits, please explain why most of its merchandising is strictly due to its connection with the Disney Princess franchise, while The Little Mermaid as late as when Ariel's Beginning was released actually had a whole sale dedicated to it?
Face that it's just your opinion and MOVE ON!
Maybe you should acknowledge that your love of BATB is just an opinion as well and stop demonizing anyone who dares state there were flaws in the film is wrong (and I actually did cite plenty of scenes from the film to make my point). -
Stratego — 9 years ago(May 24, 2016 04:44 PM)
Not really. I know quite a few Oscar winners and Golden Globes winners that actually were horrible films.
YOUR opinion, otness, YOUR opinion. When will this finally get through your thick skull? At least it's evidence of appreciation, unlike your stretched conclusion.
Besides, You also mentioned me in your response to Eko.
I mentioned your name, just like you did several times to other posters, but I didn't address one single thing you said. So no reason to respond to me.
Maybe you should acknowledge that your love of BATB is just an opinion as well and stop demonizing anyone who dares state there were flaws in the film is wrong (and I actually did cite plenty of scenes from the film to make my point).
Quit spreading your damn lies. I've never acted like my opinion of BatB is fact. And I've pointed out flaws myself multiple times. How about you stop demonizing people who state the flaws in TLM or the people who like BatB? Or atheists, or feminists or gays or college professors, etc, etc. Just STAHP! -
otness_e — 9 years ago(May 24, 2016 04:52 PM)
YOUR opinion, otness, YOUR opinion. When will this finally get through your thick skull? At least it's evidence of appreciation, unlike your stretched conclusion.
Nope, not my opinion. I even managed to cite sources specifically to prove it's not my opinion. Like for example, this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTYELrS-lcI&feature=youtu.be And bear in mind, these were guys actually affiliated with Hollywood and knew the ins and outs of Hollywood, so they definitely would know what they are talking about even if I didn't.
I mentioned your name, just like you did several times to other posters, but I didn't address one single thing you said. So no reason to respond to me.
Yeah, actually, you did address a thing I said. Specifically, that I agreed with Eko's statements, and you even implied your primary motivation for responding was simply because I agreed with Eko. I'll even quote you from your post: "Seeing how otness responded to you about how right you are, let me just give my two cents."
Quit spreading your damn lies. I've never acted like my opinion of BatB is fact. And I've pointed out flaws myself multiple times. How about you stop demonizing people who state the flaws in TLM or the people who like BatB? Or atheists, or feminists or gays or college professors, etc, etc. Just STAHP!
First of all, I avoid lying. And for the record, you HAVE in fact acted like your opinion of BatB IS fact, repeatedly, every time I or anyone else like Anonymous Fox or even people like furienna or jname967, or eko, or kentry-28530 tried to point out a flaw in the film, you jump right down our throats, even when, in my case, I made sure to go into full detail of the scene specifically to prove that, yes, I have indeed watched it, or how furienna is a self-confessed Belle fan. I've also seen your argument on that BATB is the best thread with Anonymous Fox, and you even said at one point that your opinion IS fact.
Second of all, I try to make SURE I avoid demonizing people who state flaws in TLM unless it's the kinds of people who, you know, got quite a few things wrong about the film. In fact, when people criticize Ariel for being impulsive and reckless, guess what? I actually AGREE with them. And considering that people like Taran_Wanderer are the types who actually DO bash Ariel relentlessly while propping up Belle as a goddess, I see absolutely no reason why I shouldn't respond to them and set them straight by pointing out Belle's flaws. And I also don't ignore Ariel's flaws, or even those of the film.
Third of all, those bits about atheists, feminists, gays, and college professors are directly relevant to the argument, especially feminism since even the creators of BATB made VERY clear they were trying to push feminism, so no, I will not stop, not when they actually ARE relevant in any way, shape or form, especially given how Disney's been turned into a leftist cesspool since the 1990s. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(May 24, 2016 05:08 PM)
Nope, not my opinion.
So your opinion and somebody else's opinion. It's still an OPINION. Apparently one that many other people don't share. I just can't understand how someone can't comprehend something so simple!
Yeah, actually, you did address a thing I said. Specifically, that I agreed with Eko's statements.
I did not address one thing YOU said. I simply observed that your post was in agreement with the other poster.
First of all, I avoid lying. And for the record, you HAVE in fact acted like your opinion of BatB IS fact, repeatedly, every time I tried to point out a flaw in the film, you jump right down my throat, even when I made sure to go into full detail of the scene specifically to prove that, yes, I have indeed watched it.
Lies, lies, lies. I do not jump down your throat and voicing my disagreement with you is NOT stating opinion as fact. I've also pointed out your misconceptions of the movie and real life by providing evidence, which is not about opinion but about FACT. I have NEVER EVER told you you are wrong for disliking the movie.
I've also seen your argument on that BATB is the best thread with Anonymous Fox, and you even said at one point that your opinion IS fact.
Clearly you do not understand sarcasm.
Third of all, those bits about atheists, feminists, gays, and college professors are directly relevant to the argument
No, they are not. Accusing me of supporting Stalin's actions has nothing to do with the movie. -
otness_e — 9 years ago(May 25, 2016 09:35 AM)
So your opinion and somebody else's opinion. It's still an OPINION. Apparently one that many other people don't share. I just can't understand how someone can't comprehend something so simple!
Because it's NOT that simple. What, just because people voted Barack Obama back into office, that means he's a great guy? In case you haven't noticed, he turned America into a laughing stock with his left-wing actions.
I did not address one thing YOU said. I simply observed that your post was in agreement with the other poster.
Yeah, and when you made that observation, you also basically said you responded to that poster because I agreed with them. And it's not the first time you said something like this to that other poster either.
Lies, lies, lies. I do not jump down your throat and voicing my disagreement with you is NOT stating opinion as fact. I've also pointed out your misconceptions of the movie and real life by providing evidence, which is not about opinion but about FACT. I have NEVER EVER told you you are wrong for disliking the movie.
And what I was stating about the film WAS fact. Do you really think I would have given those scenes in full detail if I was not making sure I was factual in my statements? And I also made sure to read up on a LOT of historical details, including the French Revolution, Reign of Terror, Communism, and a lot of dank elements in history, even those considered by our left-wing academics to be good, so no, I DO know what happened in real life that AREN'T misconceptions at all (last I checked, history IS real life). And I've seen you do exactly the same things even to people who called you out on your behavior, and one of whom was a self-confessed Belle fan.
Clearly you do not understand sarcasm.
Oh, I understand sarcasm when it's face to face (and even then, only if there's a certain intonation to the words, eg, saying sorry as "Saw-ree!"), but in text-based sources such as this, I doubt ANYONE can understand sarcasm unless there's tags making clear it's sarcasm.
No, they are not. Accusing me of supporting Stalin's actions has nothing to do with the movie.
Neither was your bringing up that you were an atheist when talking about the enchantress, if we are to go by your views. -
Stratego — 9 years ago(May 25, 2016 10:44 AM)
What, just because people voted Barack Obama back into office, that means he's a great guy?
Apparently they thought he was a great guy when they voted for him. Whether Obama is actually a great guy or not is totally subjective.
Yeah, and when you made that observation, you also basically said you responded to that poster because I agreed with them. And it's not the first time you said something like this to that other poster either.
When the hell did I bring you up to that other poster? And no, I didn't respond because you agreed with the other poster. But since you already responded it was fair game for me to also respond. I was just pointing out that you shouldn't accuse me of jumping on people.
And what I was stating about the film WAS fact.
No, it's not fact, that's the problem, I point out when you're wrong or when you have misconceptions about the movie or real life. Again, please show me the original French text that says that Belle was a blonde.
And I've seen you do exactly the same things even to people who called you out on your behavior, and one of whom was a self-confessed Belle fan.
YOU brought up their name out of nowhere, so YOU are to blame. I had no idea what they said, but if they said the same as you, then they misunderstood things just as much as you. They just started crying because I happened to disagree with them, just like you.
Oh, I understand sarcasm
Clearly you do not. Foxboy was the only one who needed to understand and I'm pretty sure he did.
Neither was your bringing up that you were an atheist when talking about the enchantress, if we are to go by your views.
Uhm no, dumbass. I was just answering a question another poster asked me, not trying to make a point about the movie. Not the same at all.
You really need to quit with these strawman arguments about how I supposedly attack people and just address the issues directly. It really just shows you don't have a leg to stand on. -
BelleStar82 — 9 years ago(May 25, 2016 11:10 AM)
I prefer Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast more than Lion King. Music, color palettes, story, characters to me are superior. I would actually include Aladdin too. Just gorgeous and it's hard to top the Genie character. Circle of Life is obviously epic, but song for song the others are better.
Beauty takes on a dimension that goes beyond a kid's film. Belle has depth to her. Beast is the first to go from the villain to the good guy. Sure Gaston is the designated villain to add an action element, but the real obstacle in the story is Beast's character transforming and gaining Belle's love. The love story is put first and the fight in the last act is second to that. -
!!!deleted!!! (67467984) — 9 years ago(June 03, 2016 02:57 AM)
Lion King is better by a country mile. I think the this was a more piece of film, but it didn't make a difference in the end.The whole intro t is really the only reason I still own a DVD of this movie, but there are plenty of TLK moments I still pop into rotation from time to time. The soundtrack was much more diverse, as well.
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Spyro Bandicoot Elsa Anna Olaf — 6 years ago(July 03, 2019 07:40 PM)
The Lion King is a great movie but I still put The Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast over both. While TLK has some advantages over BATB and TLM which are Scar over Ursula and Gaston and the soundtrack I still think they’re both better movies. As much as I love Timon and Pumbaa I find it hard to rate above or beneath Scuttle and Sebastian (I don’t like Flounder quite as much) Or Lumiere And Cogsworth. To me BATB’s soundtrack is good but not great or my favorite and I like TLM soundtrack
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Spyro Bandicoot Elsa Anna Olaf — 6 years ago(November 06, 2019 08:11 PM)
For me personally having rewatched The Lion King during my tween and teenage years and don’t get me wrong I still love the movie I feel I’ve grown somewhat objective towards it. I hadn’t seen BATB or LM since I was really little and rewatched them during my young adult days so maybe that’s why I’m a little less objective towards them. But LK is still a classic.
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TutuAnimationPrincess — 5 years ago(September 12, 2020 01:05 AM)
I have to say, this topic is quite the nostalgia trip. Not only seeing my own vigorous praise of TLM but the old rivalry between otness and Stratego was quite entertaining.
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