More plot holes
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libra113 — 9 years ago(September 17, 2016 02:49 PM)
What always got me is that 1885 Doc (who is from 1985) SHOULD know everything that 1955 Doc knows. So he SHOULD know that Buford is going to shoot him and WHY Marty is there and that he even dressed Marty in the silly 50's western style clothing.
For that matter Doc should've known, since 1955, that he would end up in 1885 eventually as he even read his own letter himself. -
buddyboy28 — 9 years ago(September 17, 2016 07:33 PM)
In the movie's reality, the time traveller retains their memories. It's the rules they stuck with throughout the trilogy - Marty returns to 1985 at the end of the first movie and remembers his family as losers, Marty and Doc return to alternative 1985 and don't have the experiences of been in that world - Switzerland or a mental institution etc, they remember the old Hill Valley.
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libra113 — 9 years ago(September 17, 2016 07:58 PM)
Yeah, except those situations it makes sense. In the situation I described it doesn't. There is no reason in all time travel theory I've ever read that 1985 Doc wouldn't already know he was going to be killed, that he sent Marty and that it was his 1955 self that dressed him the silly 50's idea of western clothing.
For that matter 1985 Doc SHOULD know that Marty was going to end up in 1955 at some point, at the very beginning. Actually, that might be how he ended up deciding to befriend Marty in the first place because his 1955 self knew who his parents were and that he would end up traveling back in time so he had to befriend Marty to make sure it all happened. -
mcp-69798 — 9 years ago(September 19, 2016 04:46 PM)
It makes sense. The Doc that ends up in 1885 never experiences Marty telling him in 1955 he would be stuck in the Old West and never finds out he would be killed by Buford. The events in the beginning of part III never happen in the 1955 of this Doc. As buddyboy says, time travelers retain their memories. Doc can't remember something that, from his perspective, has never happened.
"You're not thinking 4th dimensionally!" -
mcp-69798 — 9 years ago(September 20, 2016 03:28 AM)
It works that way in the BTTF universe. Can you explain why do you think what I said "makes no sense"? Marty doesn't remember growing up with a confident and succesful father, does he? He retains his memories from the unaltered timeline he's lived in. Same case with the Doc stuck in 1885 we see in part III.
"You're not thinking 4th dimensionally!" -
libra113 — 9 years ago(September 20, 2016 07:32 AM)
Marty does't remember that for two reasons: (1) He is the one who changed the past in the first place and he was outside of his normal time stream when it happened. Pretty much all time travel media and theory supports that.
However, in the case of 1955 Doc he neither changed events nor was he outside his native time stream so there is no reason whatsoever why his wouldn't remember what transpired between he and 1985 Marty down through the years to his 1985 self living in 1885.
I will say "Back to the Future" in general plays fast and loose with how time travel typically works for story conviene but this one always bugged me more than most. Mostly because it wouldn't have really hurt the story to have Doc acknowledge that he remembered sending Marty back to 1885 and putting him in the silly 50's cowboy clothes. In fact it would have helped the story because Marty wouldn't have had to explain to him what was going on he just would've known and even just hinting that Doc has known since 55 that he was going to end up in the old west and kept it to himself for the good of the time stream.
The only way it might have hurt anything would've been explaining why the Doc didn't put something in his letter about being in danger and needed him to come get him out of 1885 or why he didn't just avoid Bufford and thus avoid the whole issues but that could be explained away as he was willing to accept his fate rather than risk the damage to time and he tried to avoid Bufford but no matter what he did history kept winning out. -
EmpireKing — 9 years ago(September 20, 2016 11:15 AM)
I don't know why it matters if you've never heard of any theory of time travel like that. It's all fiction so the filmmakers can make up whatever rules they want about it and these are the rules in Back To The Future. It sounds like you want every time travel movie to have the same scenarios which would be dull.
1985 Doc is just carrying on living his life because Marty wasn't there in 1955 to give him the letter in the first place.
The time traveller's actions may change their surroundings and position in the altered future, and people outside of the time travelling experience sees no change and just knows everything that occurred in their timeline and they don't get a sudden rush of information to make their memories up to date according to the new timeline.
Also, Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale were clever because they deliberately left things open throughout the trilogy so you could interpret some things for yourself rather than trapping themselves. Which is one of the reasons why the movies remain endlessly fascinating to talk about.
For instance, we definetly know that time travellers keep their memories in these movies there's no disputing that but it's also never explicitly said they never will get those memories at any time later on gradually. We also know the ripple effect is a very common thing in these movies after major changes which admittedly depending on the scenario takes longer or quicker than others.
So Marty goes from 1955 to 1985 in the first movie, Doc instantly has the letter and bulletproof vest which makes sense because he's gone forward through time and Doc has stayed in his own timeline for 30 years.
But when Marty pushed George out of the way of the car he or his brother and sister didn't just erase. The ripple effect meant it took a few days. Same with old Biff altering the past and getting the Delorean back to Hilldale.
Even though Marty is going to see Doc's older self in 1885, he's still going to the past to see the Doc who's outside of his own timeline, and the ripple effect in the previous movies tells us any major changes are not instant, so Doc wouldn't have instant memories anyway should he get any memories all in this scenario. -
libra113 — 9 years ago(September 20, 2016 01:04 PM)
No, it's not that they should all the same so much as if they're going to make up rules they should make sense and not just because the rules applied the same through out the movies but they should make logical sense in themselves.
1985 Doc not remembering that 1955 Doc sent Marty to 1885 and that he's going to be shot doesn't make sense.
As for the ripple effect, yeah a LOT of movies, TV shows, etc have used the delayed effect as a plot device since, it it was instant, there wouldn't be any movie. It also creates a paradox since the minute Marty is erased he wouldn't be there to push George out the way in the first place.
Actually, it makes sense that it would take time for them to be fully erased for two reasons: (1) George and Loraine didn't actually fall in love until they kissed at the dance and (2)it would, theoretically, take time for the time line between 1955 and 1985 to reorder itself (so to speak).
Of course, as I've said, "Back to the Future" does play fast and loose with a lot of time travel stuff and characters do seem to be kind of blind to certain thing (Robot Chicken had a funny bit where George accuses Loraine of meeting up with their friend Marty again, after high school, since their Marty looks just like him and has the same name). Mostly, it's unexplained plot convenience and mostly can be forgiven.
This one just kind of bugged me since it's so glaring. It would've been better to just omit the Doc asking him why he was there and who dressed him in his silly outfit and jump right to the scene where Marty's just explained it all to him. That, at least, wouldn't have put such a spotlight on it.
Oh and in regards to Marty and him remembering the old time line. There is a theory that the longer he lived in the new time line the more he would forget the old one and his memories would reorder themselves. Some theories say he would remember both time lines equally.
I've seen some versions where the new memories are formed painfully even causing brain damage and nose bleeds and others where it's just stated that the character remembers both. In any case, as you say, we don't see it, mostly because the doesn't stick around for long. -
libra113 — 9 years ago(September 21, 2016 04:08 PM)
It's called basic memory. Why wouldn't 1985 Doc remember meeting 1985 Marty in 1955? Especially, since he ended up reading Marty's note and wearing a bulletproof vest.
He can't remember SOME of the events and forget the rest. It's all way too much convenient memories syndrome. -
buddyboy28 — 9 years ago(September 21, 2016 05:59 PM)
It's called basic memory
No you said 1985 Doc should know that Marty is going to end up in 1955 at some point at the very beginning. He had to befriend him to make sure it all happened.
Like I said it doesn't follow the time travel rules of movies like the original Terminator and Twelve Monkeys, so how would he know before he's gone back?
Why wouldn't Doc remember meeting 1985 Marty in 1955? Especially, since he ended up reading Marty's note and wearing a bulletproof vest
He does in the changed Lone Pine Mall timeline.
"Bulletproof vest. How did you know? I never got a chance to tell you". -
libra113 — 9 years ago(September 21, 2016 06:36 PM)
So, if you're friends with someone now and he goes back and meets you at, for example, age 12 and you go through a bunch of stuff and he tells you he knows you and he's from 2016 and all that then you're not going to remember it by the time 2016 rolls around?
You're just somehow going to forget all that? -
buddyboy28 — 9 years ago(September 24, 2016 03:19 PM)
It's the whole thing I was talking about. It's called an example, they're used to illustrate a point
No, it's called you dodging around what I was talking about and bringing up something that wasn't mentioned which is why I quoted you with what I was replying to in the first place.
Let's get this clear. Doc's not expecting Marty in 1885 because the time traveller retains their memories in the BTTF movies and he was outside of his original timeline. I don't care if you don't like that explanation, that's the way it is. I wasn't even interested in talking about that because it's been mentioned enough in this thread.
I wasn't even talking about this movie, I was talking about the first one which you brought up and said that Doc SHOULD know which you posted in capitals to emphasize it, that Marty was going to end up in 1955 at the very beginning and that he knew he was always going to be friends with him which is wrong because BTTF doesn't follow the predestined time loop rules. -
sanddragon939 — 9 years ago(December 13, 2016 01:21 PM)
I haven't read the BTTF3 novelization fully, but there's an interesting passage about the memory thing I remember reading somewhere online.
The gist of it is that after Marty tells Doc "You did" in response to Doc asking him who dressed him up in that "ridiculous outfit", Doc suddenly remembers the events in 1955 (meeting Marty for a second time, unearthing the Delorean from the mine, seeing the tombstone, sending Marty back to 1885 etc.) When he ponders about why he didn't remember them 'all along' he surmises that its because those events hadn't happened 'yet'and Marty's appearance in 1885 meant that those events happened, which is how he remembers them now.
Personally, I prefer a simpler approach to the memory thing. The ripple effect, at least as far as memories go, moves only FORWARD in time, not BACKWARDS. So, if a change is made to Doc's past in 1955, it will move forward in time. So Doc in 1961 will remember the early events of BTTF3, as will Doc in 1973 or Doc in 1985.
But Doc in 1885 won't remember because the ripple from the altered 1955 can't reach him when he's in the past relative to his natural timeline.
So, maybe, when Doc travels to the future at the end of the trilogy, the ripple catches up with him and he remembers meeting Marty in 1955 again.
There's one more wrinkle as far as Doc's memories of the early part of BTTF3 go, and it touches upon the paradox at the heart of this film - namely, Doc's tombstone.
In the final Eastwood timeline, the tombstone doesn't exist, which means that Marty and Doc in 1955 shouldn't have seen it at the mine. Which logically should be a paradox since without the tombstone, Marty wouldn't have gone back to 1885 to save Doc in the first place.
Now, the 'fix' to this, which I long ago came up with, is that in the revised sequence of 1955 events, Marty and Doc didn't see the tombstone, but Marty DID visit the local library to look up Doc in the 1880's and he then comes across the photo taken at the Clock Tower inaugurationwhich now includes both Doc AND him in Old West garb. Suddenly, Marty realizes he's 'destined' to go to the Old West and meet Doc for some reason, and that's how he gets sent back to 1885.
So, if at all Doc gets memories of the revised 1955, he shouldn't remember the tombstone but rather, some alternate sequence of events (like what I've outlined above) which led Marty back to 1885.
Formerly sn939 -
Kotter7579 — 9 years ago(January 25, 2017 10:28 PM)
if pictures, newspapers, and even matchboxes can change while looking at them due to a time altering event, why couldn't a gas can full of fuel appear in the trunk somewhere?
sigh ..deli, this comment alone means you need to watch all three movies again- twice- all deleted scenes AND you are banished to suffer thru the Kirk Cameron Q&A short special.
You'll kill everyone!
But Ice Cream Cake!