Ending question (spoilers)
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teresathebarista — 19 years ago(April 16, 2006 12:59 PM)
I always felt that "Stop it" was referring to the filming, since she tells him right beforehand to put the camera down because she's tired. Earlier in the movie when they are talking about the Ides of March party and their initial incest, Marty speaks of how he was scared and Jackie says, "So I started the game."
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ashenphoenix — 19 years ago(June 17, 2006 06:33 PM)
Is Marty really morally superior to the other characters?
He seems care less about others needs (when compared to his brother), care less about the truth (when compared to his sister and Leslie), and care about keeping the family together (when compared to his mother).
As he points out - is he cheating if he's having sex with (someone who he thinks of as) "himself"?
Each character has moral flaws that exist in tension (commonly known as an ethical dilemma). Each character also has some moral highs.
This is not a film about black and white - but a film with shades of grey and technicolor (as evidenced in the "historical" footage). -
riboflavin — 19 years ago(April 23, 2006 03:48 PM)
I just watched the movie last night and made the same assumption. In fact, that's why I came to these boards to see if someone else considered this possibility. I think it's a common assumption because we are conditioned, as a society, to assume that the man is ALWAYS the instigator, and the woman is the quintessential victim (much like your typical Lifetime movie).
There was nothing to indicate that he was an instigator - he wasn't older, and none of the prior scenes or dialog put any more blame on him than anyone else. He was a willing participant (though this incestuous relationship began when they were children), and as one other poster here already said, he was seeking redemption in adulthood, which does indeed put him on a higher moral footing than the Jackie or the mother.
So what was the reason for this closing scene? It must have been important enough for the director to bring in Rachel Leigh Cook for 20 seconds of film. I don't think it's to lay blame on the male figure, but rather to show the precise moment when harmless child's play goes too far.
And what a way to close this movie. -
lilidoll — 19 years ago(May 09, 2006 09:09 PM)
I absolutely believe so. The first time I watched it I assumed he was the initiator and that Jackie's smile meant that she did not want him or 'it' to stop. I feel it was a very important scene because throughout the entire movie you see him as the one trying to break away, trying to hide, trying to deny. That was what made Jackie so 'crazy': that he had started something that meant the world to her then simply pulled away as though she were a blow-up doll he used to fulfill his fantasy incidental and unnecessary once the fantasy became a little too real. That is the relationship being explored here: the give and pull, the balance of power, within a fetishistic (for lack of a better word) romance and especially within a family. Also, notice how he had to get Spelling's character to help him fantasize about 'the normal life' (one so cutesy and perfect it was simply silly) in order to leave Jackie. He did not want to be normal, he wanted the fantasy of being normal. He wasn't leaving one weird relationship he was entering another. And here is my opinion(and this may sound truly idiotic to anyone who has never been caught up in an elaborate fantasy), I believe that the movie is telling us that he was wrong to leave. That he needed to come to terms with himself, accept himself and his desires once and for all. And may I say, poor Jackie!
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akelly4863 — 19 years ago(May 26, 2006 10:29 AM)
I agree that her telling Marty to "stop it" was an indication that he was the one who instigated the relationship. I also agree that Marty was going more for the illusion of normalcy with Spelling's character. But I have to say that I think the question of Marty's morality in comparison to the other characters is irrelevent, especially if he was the one who started everything. To me, he was just as screwed up as the rest of them. And even though he was trying to get out, I think he realized at the end that he was just like the rest of them and not better, which is why he accepted his fate even though I'm sure he knew that Jackie was going to kill him.
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jetjagua — 19 years ago(May 30, 2006 07:00 AM)
Nice ideas. I can see how it could be taken either way. One thing I don't agree with is the assumption of insanity. I think that the guest got it right "I don't think your crazy. Just spoiled".
The life they lead is the result that so many children of "old money" get when they live a life of "yes". What do I do when I grow up? It doesn't matter. Who do I love? It doesn't matter.
If you would have told "Jackie O" that the trust fund was gone and she started work Monday at the donut shop "Sink or Swim".
She would swim. -
ashenphoenix — 19 years ago(June 17, 2006 06:24 PM)
I find it interesting that Jackie O is the only one that has a coherent account of what happened to their father.
This play/film's major theme seems to have been truth, and Jackie O seems to be the only one not trying desperately to lie.
Makes an interesting statement about "insanity" - that maybe it happens when we have no lies left.
Would Jackie O survive in the donut-shop existence outside the house, however?
I doubt it - she wouldn't have had the little lies necessary to survive in the "real" world. -
juviejay — 19 years ago(August 03, 2006 12:26 AM)
To me, the final scene sort of justified (a little bit) Jackie's killing of Marty. He did, it seems, initiate the incestuous relationship. He was (initially) the aggressor. But she didn't fight him too hard. In fact, within a few seconds, she decides to play (and master) the game. The smile and gaze she flashes into the camera is both sinister and deranged. I felt a little less bad about Marty being killed, but Jackie is the true villain.
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Violet_Loves_Iliona — 18 years ago(October 04, 2007 06:35 AM)
JetJagua
, I think you have it absolutely spot-on. Couldn't have said it better myself!
In fact, when Tori Spelling's character comments "I don't think your crazy. Just spoiled", doesn't Jackie reply "Well, it's no fun if you're going to tell the truth"? I think it was all a part of the life of privilege and indulgence that Marty, Jacky and Anthony have been lucky enough to experience. -
PunkRockAphrodite — 19 years ago(August 16, 2006 11:49 PM)
I always thought that the relationship had already been established. The game was just sex play. It was routine, they'd already been together since the party. jackie O tells Anthony that she and Marty had been together since he was a kid. Since he left college, he'd be about 19. Jackie O and Marty are about 25, right? So since the kids in the video are about 15/16, Anthony would have been 9. Which means that it makes sense for them to have already been intimate with each other. The "Stop" Jackie O says is probably just a tease, or maybe a fear of being discovered.
"So, Duffy, have any theories to go with that tie?" ~Paul Smecker, The Boondock Saints -
juviejay — 19 years ago(August 22, 2006 12:06 AM)
Hum. I thought Jackie and Marty were older, say in their early thirties. But maybe I'm just thinking of the ages of the actors, Posey in particular. The action is set 20 years after the Kennedy assassination, but we are not told how old the kids were when this happened. Maybe they were only 5 or 6. Maybe that explains why Jackie thinks Mrs. Pascal killed Mr. Pascal (like Vardaman thinks his mother is a fish in "As I Lay Dying"). I just figured it was their first encounter because it was shown at the end of the movie. I mean, if it happened earlier why not show it happening earlier? Why go back to that day? Because of the Ides of March Party and Jackie dressing up like Jackie Kennedy? Perhaps. But to me it has more significance if that is their first encounter. And, even if it wasn't, Marty still seems to be the aggressor.
"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."George W. Bush -
teresathebarista — 19 years ago(September 16, 2006 12:41 AM)
I believe that it did happen earlier. When she and Marty are talking about the initial incest, they're talking about getting ready for the Ides of March party and how she was waiting for the macaroni to dry on her dress, so she wasn't wearing the whole thing yet. This incident with the camera appears to be one of what is suggested to be many times of them "dressing up" and "playing pretend", or whatever you wanna call it, that happened sometime after the party.
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Violet_Loves_Iliona — 17 years ago(October 27, 2008 05:08 AM)
I think that was when they were preparing for the Ides of March party, and therefore was their first time they crossed over from fantasy and flirtation to actually expressing their desire for each other.
Violet
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(. (.
Jackie: We're not going to bed until one of three things happens: the hurricane ends, or we run out of rum.
Marty: That's only two.
Jackie: Hmmm -
louisdenaro — 11 years ago(July 23, 2014 07:05 PM)
The beginning of the movie captions the Young Jackie-O tour as "McLean VA, March 1971" so to my mind this is supposed to be the prequel to the Ides of March party that is referred to in the film. A portion of the script reads: "You walked over to the couch". "I was waiting for my skirt, macaroni wouldn't dry". "And I followed the seams of your stockings; then I was afraid". "So I began the game". Perhaps the idea that she's wearing a dry skirt is a continuity error, or perhaps there is another skirt that is drying somewhere, but it looks to me like the initial get together is what we are looking at here, with Marty being scared and Jackie-O beginning the game.
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YodaFan465 — 19 years ago(December 31, 2006 09:37 AM)
I got the feeling that Jackie didn't want to pretend to be Jackie Kennedy anymore, but Marty kept pushing her (possibly because he thought it was funny). Thus, her insanity, and her constant modeling after Jackie Kennedy was Marty's fault, because when she wanted to abandon it, he wouldn't let her.
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